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"Hot" take: Aesthetically-pleasing rules are highly overvalued
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8120569" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Much goodness here, it is hard to decide which things to talk about <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> (this also applies to [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] post you are responding to).</p><p></p><p>This is all pretty interesting. In my own 'HoML' game (4e hack sort of) I evolved the system such that there are 'practices' (some are rituals) which have specific substitution effects (you get to use an Arcana Check because you cast this for example instead of an Acrobatics Check). In these cases there are requirements, which can include things like 'finery', as well as 'costs', and 'stakes' (you can pay this to succeed automatically with the check using this practice). This is a way of codifying a purpose for something like this. Of course its impact on fictional positioning and the resulting feedback to success/failure, etc. should be obvious...</p><p></p><p>Right, and this definitely made 4e a lot more 'story telling game like' than previous editions. It just generally makes a LOT of things easier. I again go on from here and add 'attributes' to PCs which allow them to leverage things. They can spend 'inspiration' to leverage an attribute to change the story. The canonical example is the forgetful thief. The PC decides to gain inspiration by 'forgetting the keys'. This then leads to a consequence (this is a failure in a challenge by definition since ALL conflicts are challenges in HoML) which in the example is a guard comes around while he's trying to figure what to do. Later he expends this same inspiration to leverage his 'never forgets a face' attribute to recognize that the NEXT guard is the brother of the previous one (which he disabled) and he tosses him the brother's monogrammed dagger, warning him that his brother might not be well if he doesn't let the thief go on his way.</p><p></p><p>Right, they undercut both fictional positioning, and the closely related "player reasoning" (IE letting the player solve the mystery). This can be gotten around by treating them as licenses to alter the fiction instead of 'skills' which produce results in a 'cause and effect' (consequentialist) way. Again, this is a technique explicitly developed in HoML.right</p><p></p><p>So, yeah, in 'classic' D&D (which I will lump AD&D, 3e, and 5e into for these purposes) there isn't really any way to deal with this stuff at all! In AD&D it is just not part of the rules in any way shape or fashion, or else the DM has to wade through the questions of how to (mis)apply some subsystem designed for dungeon crawling situations in a way that wasn't intended. 3e/5e at least have checks and a fairly general rule for applying them, but as you point out, no framework within which they apply, just each one is a sort of 'mini challenge' all its own. </p><p>Vanilla 4e incorporates mechanical context, and some structure on how it maps to fictional position in that an SC is, presumably a 'scene' or something analogous. </p><p>Again this is where in my own game I've simply gone forward from where 4e left off. You can generate a consequence (alter the fictional position) by say invoking an event that takes/took place off screen (I make a check to see if I remembered to bring extra water with me into the desert, yup I have a drink!). This widens the scope and increased the flexibility of the SC mechanism greatly (TBH it can be hard to recognize and comparison with stock DMG1 SCs is strictly at the level of the core mechanical concept, in 'process of play' terms they really are their own animal).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8120569, member: 82106"] Much goodness here, it is hard to decide which things to talk about ;) (this also applies to [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] post you are responding to). This is all pretty interesting. In my own 'HoML' game (4e hack sort of) I evolved the system such that there are 'practices' (some are rituals) which have specific substitution effects (you get to use an Arcana Check because you cast this for example instead of an Acrobatics Check). In these cases there are requirements, which can include things like 'finery', as well as 'costs', and 'stakes' (you can pay this to succeed automatically with the check using this practice). This is a way of codifying a purpose for something like this. Of course its impact on fictional positioning and the resulting feedback to success/failure, etc. should be obvious... Right, and this definitely made 4e a lot more 'story telling game like' than previous editions. It just generally makes a LOT of things easier. I again go on from here and add 'attributes' to PCs which allow them to leverage things. They can spend 'inspiration' to leverage an attribute to change the story. The canonical example is the forgetful thief. The PC decides to gain inspiration by 'forgetting the keys'. This then leads to a consequence (this is a failure in a challenge by definition since ALL conflicts are challenges in HoML) which in the example is a guard comes around while he's trying to figure what to do. Later he expends this same inspiration to leverage his 'never forgets a face' attribute to recognize that the NEXT guard is the brother of the previous one (which he disabled) and he tosses him the brother's monogrammed dagger, warning him that his brother might not be well if he doesn't let the thief go on his way. Right, they undercut both fictional positioning, and the closely related "player reasoning" (IE letting the player solve the mystery). This can be gotten around by treating them as licenses to alter the fiction instead of 'skills' which produce results in a 'cause and effect' (consequentialist) way. Again, this is a technique explicitly developed in HoML.right So, yeah, in 'classic' D&D (which I will lump AD&D, 3e, and 5e into for these purposes) there isn't really any way to deal with this stuff at all! In AD&D it is just not part of the rules in any way shape or fashion, or else the DM has to wade through the questions of how to (mis)apply some subsystem designed for dungeon crawling situations in a way that wasn't intended. 3e/5e at least have checks and a fairly general rule for applying them, but as you point out, no framework within which they apply, just each one is a sort of 'mini challenge' all its own. Vanilla 4e incorporates mechanical context, and some structure on how it maps to fictional position in that an SC is, presumably a 'scene' or something analogous. Again this is where in my own game I've simply gone forward from where 4e left off. You can generate a consequence (alter the fictional position) by say invoking an event that takes/took place off screen (I make a check to see if I remembered to bring extra water with me into the desert, yup I have a drink!). This widens the scope and increased the flexibility of the SC mechanism greatly (TBH it can be hard to recognize and comparison with stock DMG1 SCs is strictly at the level of the core mechanical concept, in 'process of play' terms they really are their own animal). [/QUOTE]
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