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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8860482" data-attributes="member: 67338">wait... even with the ring and the paladin you aren't making it on a 2... that is a 5% chance.  what are you talking about at best I got it to a 4. (15% chance) and again that is only with your best save...lets do the standard array.15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8lets put the +1 in the 15 and the +2 in the 14 so I get 2 16s16 +316 +313 +112 +110 +08 -1now lets give prof in 1 of the 16s and the 13. and give a +2 to the 16 with the prof... make them a +4 prof18 +816 +313 +512 +110 +08 -1but then lets give them either a cloak or ring +118 +916 +413 +612 +210 +18 +0lets forget the scores and just record the saves+9, +6, +4, +2, +1, +0lets say that 1/3 of the time you get a +3 from a paly next to you and that brings you to+12,+9,+7,+5,+4,+3these two sets gives us a range of +0-+12 where +12 is your best and +0 is your worst... so against a DC 14 you have a 5% fail on your BEST save in the BEST situation, and you have a 65% fail rate on your worst in the worst situation...prof 4 comes on line between levels 9-12 so lets imagine a threat that should be facing in those levels... do you think having there save based off an 18 or 19 stat is reasonable? but again to skew that hard you have to have a magic+ a prof a good stat and a paladin friend with a good stat... even then most times it wont be 5% fail...now lets take those numbers and say you will make 40 saves over levels 9-12 (number pulled from my back side but that is 10 saves per level) and that half of them will be against your best save (that seems dubius unless you just happen to have your best save be dex... again I see a rogue issue) but the other 20 saves will be split 10 (so half again) to your next best save and 10 to your third best (you are never useing those last three and again that seems dubius at best but lets see)so 20saves with +9 66% of the time and +12 33% of the time.10 saves with +6 66% of the time and +9 33% of the time10 saves with +4 66% of the time and +7 33% of the time...now half of those will be DC 13 and half will be DC 15I will round in favor of the paliden being there...6 saves +9 Vs 13 (15% chance of fail)4 saves +12 vs 13 (0% chance of fail)6 saves +9 vs 15 (25% chance of fail)4 saves +12 vs 15 (10% chance of fail)so even here the best save is over those levels .9+1.5+.4=6.4   you come close with 6.4% (lets round down to 6) a 6% fail rate... that rate only goes UP from here... so no it will not be 5% when done but I am tired of doing math for now.but is that 70% against your best or against your worst? remember even useing this system that is +0-+12 a 12pt swing...I agree it only is a treadmill if you ignore all the guidance about encounter building and how attacks themselves scale in damage...I would say you should favor the one that is the focus... my BEST save should out distance your DC. my WORST save should be out distanced by your DC, my AVERAGE should be on that treadmill staying about the same...</blockquote>

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