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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thomas Shey" data-source="post: 9425298" data-attributes="member: 7026617">But see, I don't see "manipulate the fiction directly" as being a good substitute for rules in a lot of exploration adjacent situations.  (At least no more than it should be in combat, too).  Climbing should be mostly about what the character knows how to do, not what the player does; same for searching, survival rolls and a lot of other things.I think its a fine line between "The character could be run on autopilot" and "Everything is about description", but its a line worth finding.I mean I'll be pretty blunt: I know this is a lot of the real world situation for some people and desirable for others, but an RPG where you can get most of what I'd want done in session in four hours isn't likely an RPG I'd find worth playing.As I said, the problem is I don't usually find it makes all that much sense to have those sort of competing but hostile groups in the same structure, and when it is, I'd expect the border areas to be very heavily locked down.  And that's not much less true in fantasy, honestly.  You can make it work to a limited degree with non-intelligent opponents and some decent dead space in whatever structure/cavern complex/what-all you going on, but the more there are intelligent opponents in there that can be a real thread on a room to room basis to PCs, the more I'd expect some degree of cooperation among them, and that gets right back to the encapsulation of the areas not making a lot of sense.  I mean, its not as bad as "all we have to do is make an intercom call" but it just doesn't entirely hold water there'd be no connection and response to the sound of a battle.I guess the argument I'm making is "exploration" in the scale of a lot of traditional dungeons either should have very limited number of opponents, not very smart ones, or ones that operate by constraints that have nothing to do with anything mundane.  Or they're still one big fight looking for a place to happen in a way that isn't really that distinct from the mega-corp situation.Edit: To make it clear, I'm not telling people what they should or shouldn't enjoy, but it appears to me from reading this that what people are calling a "dungeon crawl" here is often dependent on what seems to me on the least logical and most stylized corner of what I saw called that back in the day.  Which is fine if its what they want, but its turned "dungeon crawl" into a very heavily term-of-art thing.</blockquote>

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