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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8246539" data-attributes="member: 23751">That was just a bit of hyperbole on my part to illustrate the point.  It's not going to take anywhere near old age to achieve 20th level and those things I mentioned.IF they make it there, yes.  It's the "if" that makes all the difference.  If you can't be guaranteed to get there and/or can die when you do, then true failure can happen.  You might never succeed before death claims you.  That potential makes all of the other setbacks possibly permanent ones, which alters the feel of the game considerably. Sure!  And that's part of the fun.  Consequences are part of game play starting from the first moment of the first session.  We're not discussing consequences, though.  We're discussing setbacks and failures, which even though are consequences, don't comprise the entire set of what consequences are.  All A = B, but not all B = A.Please don't include me in that.  I told [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] that doing that would constitute a player decision to have his PC die.</blockquote>