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"Hot Take": Fear is a bad motivator
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8248285" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Only for a short time, as in most cases before very long you'll either be revived or have a new PC on the hop.</p><p></p><p>And if you're playing more than one PC in the party, you don't even disconnect for that short time.</p><p></p><p>This assumes - perhaps rightly in some cases - that one's connection to the game is only through one's PC. Keep in mind, though, that one's connection to the game can also come via connection to the ongoing story and-or party, and-or via connection with the friends you have at the table, and-or via simple tradition and-or inertia.</p><p></p><p>In principle I completely agree with the parts I've bolded here. I firmly believe a PC <strong>does</strong> belong to its player - which is why in other threads I've railed against DMs who take PCs away from players and turn them into NPCs if, say, the PC becomes evil.</p><p></p><p>That said, when you-as-player take that PC out adventuring I see it that you're in effect gambling that you'll still have that possession afterwards. The game asks you to expose your possession to at least some degree of risk as the stakes or ante, if you will, for playing. This comes back to the luck element I referred to upthread (at least I think it was this thread...?).</p><p></p><p>And, even though the odds are significantly in your favour and can be made even more so by skill at play, sooner or later you're gonna lose that gamble. I see no problem with this</p><p></p><p>See above - maybe it clarifies a bit.</p><p></p><p>Here's where I "question the reason", particularly with computer programs: given that with today's computer technology the programmers could easily turn the random number generators loose to create terrain for wherever a player might go, and then "remember" it afterwards why don't they?</p><p></p><p>There's a commonly-referenced maxim in pro sports which I think applies here: "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying."</p><p></p><p>Argument-ender, mostly.</p><p></p><p>I see it not so much as the game's already broken, but as something - in this case, something very avoidable - that <em>could</em> break it.</p><p></p><p>Forthright communication requires a few things in order to be successful. First, a willingness to be open, honest and, sometimes, blunt. Second, it demands at least some thickness of skin so as not to take things personally. Without these, IME communication quickly becomes much less than forthright and open: behind-the-back talk, rumours, lobbying, all that BS that can quickly rip apart any group.</p><p></p><p>Add to that forthrightness a general streak of stubbornness among some of us (me included) and yes, arguments happen. This is where the DM sometimes needs to put the referee's hat on and lay down a final word; and the DM's word being the law is pretty much sacrosant here.</p><p></p><p>Maybe I'm different; in that my usual stance is if someone's got something to say to me, I'd rather it be said in front of the whole crew.</p><p></p><p>Ah, OK then. That's a bit more serious than what I originally read as a simple departure form an adventure path to seek greener fields elsewhere in the (prepped or unprepped) setting.</p><p></p><p>Gotcha. Again, I read it as meaning smaller-scale departures.</p><p></p><p>Same here to nearly all of this.</p><p></p><p>To be devil's advocate for just a moment (as I really do hear what you're saying on this), maybe the players doing this is perhaps a signal that the setting - or at least this part of it - has in their eyes been overprepped, that they feel there's nothing to really explore here as it's all already been laid out? That they'd rather go where the map is blank?</p><p></p><p>Further, one could take a more pragmatic long-term view. OK, they've turned their noses up at all this now, but maybe once they've got the go-where-the-map-is-blank urges out of their systems they'll return to the prepped areas-stories-etc. and pick up on some of it. Failing that, all is still not lost: you've still got all that prep in the hopper, waiting for another campaign and-or another party in the same campaign to make use of it, whether with the same players, different players, or a mix. (I've had this happen: multiple parties in the same campaign/setting with the <em>same players</em>; one party happily bashes around in the prepped area while another - again, same players - looks at the blank part of the map and says "screw it, we're going that way".</p><p></p><p>I guess I don't see it so much as a rebuke as an opportunity. Yes it's more work for me that I didn't expect to have to do this soon, but hey, I've now got a chance to come up with something mostly-brand-new (and as it's just a different part of the same setting I don't have to do a rules review as the rules and system are already locked in for that setting, which takes out a load of work right there!).</p><p></p><p>Not at all! As both player and DM I'd rather things be at least somewhat planned than completely made up on the fly.</p><p></p><p>All I'm saying is that no matter how much planning you or I might do, sooner or later (probably sooner, IME!) the players are going to throw a serious curveball, and it's our job as DM to be able to deal with it.</p><p></p><p>Re: Dungeon World</p><p></p><p>OK, I've seen those lists before.</p><p></p><p>Got it. DW doesn't have the same granular combat mechanics as D&D, right? I ask because combat - be it by fumble, spell damage, or whatever - is the most common means of magic item loss in my games; and sometimes due to sheer bad luck e.g. you fumbled your attack, the fumble roll shows you tried to break your weapon, and it then failed its save.</p><p></p><p>Tell that to the party I was running a few years back. They had a sword that allowed the wielder to teleport (at slight risk) with up to three other people, otherwise as per the spell. They got great use out of this thing until one day the character using said sword completely blew the roll and ended up appearing in solid rock: end of character, end of sword.</p><p></p><p>The character in question was* its player's favourite of several she has in the campaign, and even she was more put out over the loss of the sword than the character!</p><p></p><p>* - and still is; the party moved heaven and earth to get that damn sword back...and the character too, as a side effect. I seem to recall at least one full <em>Wish</em> being involved.... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>This is getting long, time is getting short, so I'll get to the rest a bit later. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8248285, member: 29398"] Only for a short time, as in most cases before very long you'll either be revived or have a new PC on the hop. And if you're playing more than one PC in the party, you don't even disconnect for that short time. This assumes - perhaps rightly in some cases - that one's connection to the game is only through one's PC. Keep in mind, though, that one's connection to the game can also come via connection to the ongoing story and-or party, and-or via connection with the friends you have at the table, and-or via simple tradition and-or inertia. In principle I completely agree with the parts I've bolded here. I firmly believe a PC [B]does[/B] belong to its player - which is why in other threads I've railed against DMs who take PCs away from players and turn them into NPCs if, say, the PC becomes evil. That said, when you-as-player take that PC out adventuring I see it that you're in effect gambling that you'll still have that possession afterwards. The game asks you to expose your possession to at least some degree of risk as the stakes or ante, if you will, for playing. This comes back to the luck element I referred to upthread (at least I think it was this thread...?). And, even though the odds are significantly in your favour and can be made even more so by skill at play, sooner or later you're gonna lose that gamble. I see no problem with this See above - maybe it clarifies a bit. Here's where I "question the reason", particularly with computer programs: given that with today's computer technology the programmers could easily turn the random number generators loose to create terrain for wherever a player might go, and then "remember" it afterwards why don't they? There's a commonly-referenced maxim in pro sports which I think applies here: "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." Argument-ender, mostly. I see it not so much as the game's already broken, but as something - in this case, something very avoidable - that [I]could[/I] break it. Forthright communication requires a few things in order to be successful. First, a willingness to be open, honest and, sometimes, blunt. Second, it demands at least some thickness of skin so as not to take things personally. Without these, IME communication quickly becomes much less than forthright and open: behind-the-back talk, rumours, lobbying, all that BS that can quickly rip apart any group. Add to that forthrightness a general streak of stubbornness among some of us (me included) and yes, arguments happen. This is where the DM sometimes needs to put the referee's hat on and lay down a final word; and the DM's word being the law is pretty much sacrosant here. Maybe I'm different; in that my usual stance is if someone's got something to say to me, I'd rather it be said in front of the whole crew. Ah, OK then. That's a bit more serious than what I originally read as a simple departure form an adventure path to seek greener fields elsewhere in the (prepped or unprepped) setting. Gotcha. Again, I read it as meaning smaller-scale departures. Same here to nearly all of this. To be devil's advocate for just a moment (as I really do hear what you're saying on this), maybe the players doing this is perhaps a signal that the setting - or at least this part of it - has in their eyes been overprepped, that they feel there's nothing to really explore here as it's all already been laid out? That they'd rather go where the map is blank? Further, one could take a more pragmatic long-term view. OK, they've turned their noses up at all this now, but maybe once they've got the go-where-the-map-is-blank urges out of their systems they'll return to the prepped areas-stories-etc. and pick up on some of it. Failing that, all is still not lost: you've still got all that prep in the hopper, waiting for another campaign and-or another party in the same campaign to make use of it, whether with the same players, different players, or a mix. (I've had this happen: multiple parties in the same campaign/setting with the [I]same players[/I]; one party happily bashes around in the prepped area while another - again, same players - looks at the blank part of the map and says "screw it, we're going that way". I guess I don't see it so much as a rebuke as an opportunity. Yes it's more work for me that I didn't expect to have to do this soon, but hey, I've now got a chance to come up with something mostly-brand-new (and as it's just a different part of the same setting I don't have to do a rules review as the rules and system are already locked in for that setting, which takes out a load of work right there!). Not at all! As both player and DM I'd rather things be at least somewhat planned than completely made up on the fly. All I'm saying is that no matter how much planning you or I might do, sooner or later (probably sooner, IME!) the players are going to throw a serious curveball, and it's our job as DM to be able to deal with it. Re: Dungeon World OK, I've seen those lists before. Got it. DW doesn't have the same granular combat mechanics as D&D, right? I ask because combat - be it by fumble, spell damage, or whatever - is the most common means of magic item loss in my games; and sometimes due to sheer bad luck e.g. you fumbled your attack, the fumble roll shows you tried to break your weapon, and it then failed its save. Tell that to the party I was running a few years back. They had a sword that allowed the wielder to teleport (at slight risk) with up to three other people, otherwise as per the spell. They got great use out of this thing until one day the character using said sword completely blew the roll and ended up appearing in solid rock: end of character, end of sword. The character in question was* its player's favourite of several she has in the campaign, and even she was more put out over the loss of the sword than the character! * - and still is; the party moved heaven and earth to get that damn sword back...and the character too, as a side effect. I seem to recall at least one full [I]Wish[/I] being involved.... :) This is getting long, time is getting short, so I'll get to the rest a bit later. :) [/QUOTE]
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