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"Hot Take": Fear is a bad motivator
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8249330" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Got it.</p><p></p><p>Depends. Sometimes IME spectating (or guest-piloting an NPC) can be just as engaging as playing my own PC. Other times, not so much; dependent on a host of variables including my own mood at the time.</p><p></p><p>Any time chance is involved in any game, there's a gamble (i.e. luck). Doesn't matter the odds, or what you can do to mitigate said odds.</p><p></p><p>In this case, in a broad sense your PC itself is the stakes. A win means you get it back, probably improved somehow e.g. with more levels/xp and-or more wealth/items, etc. A tie means you get it back but without improvement, or where any improvements have been in effect cancelled out by disimprovements. A loss means you don't get it back, or what you get back isn't what you put in (e.g. after Reincarnation).</p><p></p><p>Where I love 'em. Perhaps that comes from approaching the game from more of a whimsical angle, I don't know.</p><p></p><p>I'll take your word for this.</p><p></p><p>Which seems counterintuitive in a way, but OK.</p><p></p><p>You're defining cheating as something different than I am, in this case. I'm defining cheating to include anything that breaks a rule of the game. Committing a foul, by definition, means you're breaking a rule of the game; and fouls as a strategic move are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about - you're pushing the boundaries of what's allowed.</p><p></p><p>There isn't really a term that suits "lesser cheating" such as typical basketball fouls or hockey penalties.</p><p></p><p>Not at all, though I can see how you'd get here given I used the term 'cheating'. But what other term is there to cover testing the borders or similar, <em>within what the game in theory allows and-or accounts for</em> such as fouls in basketball or rules exploits in D&D?</p><p></p><p>I'm not suggesting or supporting any of this and in fact am very much opposed to it.</p><p></p><p>I'm not opposed, however, to players trying* things that are technically legal (or accepted) by RAW but maybe not quite what the game expects. My charades example upthread where I just find the word and point to it is such a thing: it's not against the rules of the game but the game as written sure doesn't expect someone to think outside the box enough to do it.</p><p></p><p>* - note that I say "trying" here; I also feel it's the DM's job to shut these things down by houserule if they threaten to ruin the game, preferably before they're discovered and certainly when they are.</p><p></p><p>I see it as much more black and white: either you have character death in the game or you don't. Games where there's no character death - as it initially appared was your modus operandi - are the sort of thing I was suggesting are non-believable at best and ridiculously exploitable at worst.</p><p></p><p>However, you've since said that you do have character death in your games; which to me then makes death a valid option for the dice to spit out at random every now and then, even if rarely, just like any other bad outcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's the same conversation whether in public or in private. Making it public merely removes any after-the-fact plausible deniability for one's words, as there's others present.</p><p></p><p>Three? You're just getting nicely underway. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Maybe not quite to the 3e extent I tend to prefer magic items be more easy come, easy go. IME players love getting new toys, so unless I want their PCs to get buried in stuff there needs to be a relatively-common mechanical means of removal or loss other than arbitrary numbers-in-possession limits, which IMO are poor design. Breakage and destruction covers this, more or less, along with <em>Dispel Magic*</em> for the minor stuff e.g. scrolls and potions.</p><p></p><p>This is where 3e dropped the ball: they kept the easy-come part but really chopped back on the easy-go. Sadly, 5e seems to have also chopped back the easy-come part.</p><p></p><p>* - I use the 1e version of <em>Dispel Magic</em>: an indiscriminate area-of-effect spell that tries to take out any magic in its AoE. Gawds help the caster who fumbles with one of these and drops it on his own party...which I've seen done many a time. (I've also had it happen to opponents, much to their annoyance, courtesy of some crap rolling on my part)</p><p></p><p>In that, for what it's worth, you have my sympathy.</p><p></p><p>Fair enough. I'm talking more temporary things such as being torqued off with your boss or having just broken up with your latest partner, that sort of thing.</p><p></p><p>I also want them to be able to be more than they are in real life, but it's on perhaps more of a high risk-high reward basis than what you have.</p><p></p><p>That's quite cool.</p><p></p><p>Not sure what you mean here.</p><p></p><p>If two characters decide they dislike each other, and it slowly escalates over time (for whatever reasons) to the point where they throw down or where one walks out of the party or plots death against the other, how is that out-of-character? If anything, it seems to me to be more truly in-character than "finding a way to make it work" would be.</p><p></p><p>That would kinda run aground on my cosmology etc., as I have it that while the dead generally retain memories of their time alive, those revived don't have any memories whatsoever of their time dead. </p><p></p><p>I actually tried a play on this recently with one of my own PCs; the poor guy's mind is messed up six ways from Sunday anyway (<em>very</em> long story!) so I thought with his latest revival (of many!) I'd reverse it: he came back with memories of the land of the dead but almost none at all of being alive other than his name and a few stray bits from his childhood. He had no idea who these strange people were who had just brought him back to life and who seemed to know him; he thought he was still in Niflheim and wondered why there weren't any Frost Giants to fight. The other PCs cured him of this, eventually, but it was an interesting take while it lasted.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8249330, member: 29398"] Got it. Depends. Sometimes IME spectating (or guest-piloting an NPC) can be just as engaging as playing my own PC. Other times, not so much; dependent on a host of variables including my own mood at the time. Any time chance is involved in any game, there's a gamble (i.e. luck). Doesn't matter the odds, or what you can do to mitigate said odds. In this case, in a broad sense your PC itself is the stakes. A win means you get it back, probably improved somehow e.g. with more levels/xp and-or more wealth/items, etc. A tie means you get it back but without improvement, or where any improvements have been in effect cancelled out by disimprovements. A loss means you don't get it back, or what you get back isn't what you put in (e.g. after Reincarnation). Where I love 'em. Perhaps that comes from approaching the game from more of a whimsical angle, I don't know. I'll take your word for this. Which seems counterintuitive in a way, but OK. You're defining cheating as something different than I am, in this case. I'm defining cheating to include anything that breaks a rule of the game. Committing a foul, by definition, means you're breaking a rule of the game; and fouls as a strategic move are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about - you're pushing the boundaries of what's allowed. There isn't really a term that suits "lesser cheating" such as typical basketball fouls or hockey penalties. Not at all, though I can see how you'd get here given I used the term 'cheating'. But what other term is there to cover testing the borders or similar, [I]within what the game in theory allows and-or accounts for[/I] such as fouls in basketball or rules exploits in D&D? I'm not suggesting or supporting any of this and in fact am very much opposed to it. I'm not opposed, however, to players trying* things that are technically legal (or accepted) by RAW but maybe not quite what the game expects. My charades example upthread where I just find the word and point to it is such a thing: it's not against the rules of the game but the game as written sure doesn't expect someone to think outside the box enough to do it. * - note that I say "trying" here; I also feel it's the DM's job to shut these things down by houserule if they threaten to ruin the game, preferably before they're discovered and certainly when they are. I see it as much more black and white: either you have character death in the game or you don't. Games where there's no character death - as it initially appared was your modus operandi - are the sort of thing I was suggesting are non-believable at best and ridiculously exploitable at worst. However, you've since said that you do have character death in your games; which to me then makes death a valid option for the dice to spit out at random every now and then, even if rarely, just like any other bad outcome. It's the same conversation whether in public or in private. Making it public merely removes any after-the-fact plausible deniability for one's words, as there's others present. Three? You're just getting nicely underway. :) Maybe not quite to the 3e extent I tend to prefer magic items be more easy come, easy go. IME players love getting new toys, so unless I want their PCs to get buried in stuff there needs to be a relatively-common mechanical means of removal or loss other than arbitrary numbers-in-possession limits, which IMO are poor design. Breakage and destruction covers this, more or less, along with [I]Dispel Magic*[/I] for the minor stuff e.g. scrolls and potions. This is where 3e dropped the ball: they kept the easy-come part but really chopped back on the easy-go. Sadly, 5e seems to have also chopped back the easy-come part. * - I use the 1e version of [I]Dispel Magic[/I]: an indiscriminate area-of-effect spell that tries to take out any magic in its AoE. Gawds help the caster who fumbles with one of these and drops it on his own party...which I've seen done many a time. (I've also had it happen to opponents, much to their annoyance, courtesy of some crap rolling on my part) In that, for what it's worth, you have my sympathy. Fair enough. I'm talking more temporary things such as being torqued off with your boss or having just broken up with your latest partner, that sort of thing. I also want them to be able to be more than they are in real life, but it's on perhaps more of a high risk-high reward basis than what you have. That's quite cool. Not sure what you mean here. If two characters decide they dislike each other, and it slowly escalates over time (for whatever reasons) to the point where they throw down or where one walks out of the party or plots death against the other, how is that out-of-character? If anything, it seems to me to be more truly in-character than "finding a way to make it work" would be. That would kinda run aground on my cosmology etc., as I have it that while the dead generally retain memories of their time alive, those revived don't have any memories whatsoever of their time dead. I actually tried a play on this recently with one of my own PCs; the poor guy's mind is messed up six ways from Sunday anyway ([I]very[/I] long story!) so I thought with his latest revival (of many!) I'd reverse it: he came back with memories of the land of the dead but almost none at all of being alive other than his name and a few stray bits from his childhood. He had no idea who these strange people were who had just brought him back to life and who seemed to know him; he thought he was still in Niflheim and wondered why there weren't any Frost Giants to fight. The other PCs cured him of this, eventually, but it was an interesting take while it lasted. [/QUOTE]
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