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<blockquote data-quote="DMZ2112" data-source="post: 8924189" data-attributes="member: 78752">Extreme results occur in D&amp;D all the time, it's just that the rules of D&amp;D only interpret 5% of them as extreme outcomes, and only in the context of an attack roll.&nbsp; You keep conflating results and outcomes, and it doesn't strengthen your case.&nbsp; As you yourself have pointed out, unlike in PbtA, most D&amp;D outcomes are known, and assigned to an uncertain result.A roll of 1 or 20 on a 1d20 is extreme.&nbsp; A roll of 1 or 4 on a 1d4 is extreme.&nbsp; The result of a coin flip is always extreme.&nbsp; That's what extreme means -- &quot;at the ends.&quot;&nbsp; The fact that D&amp;D doesn't allow for the interpretation of extreme results as outcomes in its rules is a case against uncertainty being beneficial to D&amp;D, not for it.&nbsp; A system that makes good use of uncertainty is designed to do so.&nbsp; You seem to understand this when you talk about PbtA, where the 2d6 curve and trinary core mechanic do make slightly better use of uncertainty, but then you say things like, &quot;Failing to land a solid attack against a foe defending themselves is not an extreme result,&quot; and &quot;D&amp;D is sooo slooooow by comparison.&quot;Do you understand why D&amp;D5 is slow?&nbsp; It's because the to-hit math hasn't functionally changed since 1989 while hit point totals have substantially increased.&nbsp; The game was designed for trained combatants to miss (or be parried) all the time, because taking hit point damage at all was the 'extreme outcome.'&nbsp; The very fact that a D&amp;D5 crit &quot;isn't that extreme&quot; is evidence that D&amp;D5 does not make good use of uncertainty.As a bunch of folks in the thread have tried to point out, uncertainty doesn't make vanilla D&amp;D better by the numbers.&nbsp; There's a case to be made that risk is fun in any context, or that the rules of D&amp;D could or should be adapted to make better use of uncertainty in defining outcomes, but no one seems content to make these cases.Yeah, took a page right out of your book, didn't they?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DMZ2112, post: 8924189, member: 78752"] Extreme results occur in D&D all the time, it's just that the rules of D&D only interpret 5% of them as extreme [I]outcomes[/I], and only in the context of an attack roll. You keep conflating results and outcomes, and it doesn't strengthen your case. As you yourself have pointed out, unlike in PbtA, most D&D outcomes are [I]known[/I], and assigned to an uncertain result. A roll of 1 or 20 on a 1d20 is extreme. A roll of 1 or 4 on a 1d4 is extreme. The result of a coin flip is [I]always[/I] extreme. That's what extreme means -- "at the ends." The fact that D&D doesn't allow for the interpretation of extreme results as outcomes in its rules is a case [I]against[/I] uncertainty being beneficial to D&D, not for it. A system that makes good use of uncertainty is [I]designed to do so[/I]. You seem to understand this when you talk about PbtA, where the 2d6 curve and trinary core mechanic do make slightly better use of uncertainty, but then you say things like, "Failing to land a solid attack against a foe defending themselves is not an extreme result," and "D&D is sooo slooooow by comparison." Do you understand why D&D5 is slow? It's because the to-hit math hasn't functionally changed since 1989 while hit point totals have substantially increased. The game was designed for trained combatants to miss (or be parried) all the time, because taking hit point damage [I]at all[/I] was the 'extreme outcome.' The very fact that a D&D5 crit "isn't that extreme" is evidence that D&D5 does not make good use of uncertainty. As a bunch of folks in the thread have tried to point out, [B]uncertainty doesn't make vanilla D&D better by the numbers[/B]. There's a case to be made that risk is fun in any context, or that the rules of D&D could or should be adapted to make better use of uncertainty in defining outcomes, but no one seems content to make these cases. Yeah, took a page right out of your book, didn't they? [/QUOTE]

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