Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
House rules for Improved Game Balance.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 5099566" data-attributes="member: 51942"><p>Yeah, I thought about that too. However, boosting 3 stats won't solve the problem of builds that have two aligned primary/secondary stats - and these aren't uncommon: wand-wizards, Str-Con fighters, Cha-Wis paladins, prescient Bards, etc.</p><p></p><p>When it comes to weaknesses - raising all the stats doesn't remove a PC's weaknesses - it just avoids making them ever more acute. Beyond defenses, in particular skills and initiative diverge as levels rise, which is bad for balance (we get the 3e effect of having 1 or 2 characters auto-succeed at a check and the others hopelessly fail). Since the game still rewards high primary stats, there's no question that these weaknesses will be noticable - it's just that with this update, skill training might actually be able to mitigate that somewhat.</p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure that diverging stat bonuses as levels rise are a bad idea - and if you're going to fix it a little (and expose yourself to the risk that there's an unbalancing combo somewhere) you might as well go whole hog.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Yeah, Unfortunately, they last until the next short rest. Since I neither want people running around with masses of thp at the start of each combat nor wish to force short rests (if a char doesn't want to rest, that his business), I don't think these things should that long.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Currently, if you stand up from prone while an ally stand on you, you get a free shift - which doesn't particularly make sense to me.</p><p></p><p>Monsters gain 6-10 hp per level, so this represents a 10-17% reduction (less at low levels) Relatively, brutes get the best deal, which is fine by me. I chose to not use a % reduction both because I actually kind of like slightly exagerating the differences between monsters, and because it's easy to calculate. Effectively, it's very similar to a percentage reduction but hopefully easier to calculate.</p><p></p><p>However, you may be right that a larger reduction is warranted, a 2 points per level reduction is probably just as good (and twice that for elites, and 4 times that for solo's). I'm leery of dropping 20-25% of the hit points simply because I like keeping my rules super-simple and their computations doable at a glance.</p><p></p><p>Monster attack bonuses vs. NAD's are about 1.5 points lower than those vs. AC. (in the MM) I accept that NAD attack might be a little nastier than AC attacks, but certainly player NAD's should be no more than 3 worse than AC <em>on average</em>.</p><p></p><p>Right now a paladin's NAD's start more than 5 points lower than AC <em>on average</em>. For a more generic character, assume a total of +8 to NADs from stats, +2 from class, and +1 from a light shield, divided over three NADs: that's an average NAD of 13.7. A typical AC would be hide+light shield+4, say, for 18 - or more than 4 lower. Frankly, I think a +1 bonus to nads at first level is on the low end of reasonable, but to avoid changing balance too much, I thought I'd stay conservative. The problem's a little worse than it seems too; although many characters will pick up a few extra AC boosters (a defensive weapon, a better shield, a staff of defense, etc.) those kind of small boosts are harder to get for NADs.</p><p></p><p>Not really - if people boost all stats, the divergence will be less. I don't have a problem with PC's being good in a skill, but right now, it's easy to reach the point where some PC's will always manage a certain skill check and others never. Skills diverge just as badly as NAD's do, and in practice, they tend to diverge more due to the huge effect of skill training. People often play to their strengths, so even at first level, it's not common to have a difference of +10 or more at a given skill within the party. Once you add a few racial bonuses, magic items, tools, armor penalties and whatnot, even without ability modifiers diverging, that's quite likely to get dangerously close to +20: that's not good in my book.</p><p></p><p> I can see how raising all stats seems like a lot at first sight. It does, doesn't it? But really, the extra stats you're raising are the weakest, least interesting stats. Skills won't flatten out; they're already extremely different at level 1, and as people collect items + powers that play to their strengths, they'll still diverge - but now they'll diverge because of a real investment, not because of a non-choice (I mean, who's going to invest one of their two stat boosts in a non-primary stat?).</p><p></p><p>Another reason to raise all the stats is to prevent players from being, well, stupid. I've seen players several times choose to "round off" an uneven stat to a round stat or simply to pick some non-primary/secondary stat because they haven't thought it through. It takes quite a bit of effort to explain that if they're doing that, they're effectively playing at less than 22 point buy (it's cheaper to allocate non-primary/secondary stats at character creation), so that it's almost certainly unwise. These are the players that simply create a PC because it sounds fun, and I don't want to punish them because they didn't preplan their entire PC across 30 levels.</p><p></p><p>Because monsters are considered one level lower than usual, I expect PC's with these rules will actually be pretty much the same strength (relative to the monsters) as usual. Monsters gain a level but lose HP (effectively gaining +1 att/defenses and a bit cooler powers+damage), whereas pc's gain several feats over the course of their career (expertise +epic defense stuff) and roughly +1 to NADs.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="eamon, post: 5099566, member: 51942"] Yeah, I thought about that too. However, boosting 3 stats won't solve the problem of builds that have two aligned primary/secondary stats - and these aren't uncommon: wand-wizards, Str-Con fighters, Cha-Wis paladins, prescient Bards, etc. When it comes to weaknesses - raising all the stats doesn't remove a PC's weaknesses - it just avoids making them ever more acute. Beyond defenses, in particular skills and initiative diverge as levels rise, which is bad for balance (we get the 3e effect of having 1 or 2 characters auto-succeed at a check and the others hopelessly fail). Since the game still rewards high primary stats, there's no question that these weaknesses will be noticable - it's just that with this update, skill training might actually be able to mitigate that somewhat. I'm pretty sure that diverging stat bonuses as levels rise are a bad idea - and if you're going to fix it a little (and expose yourself to the risk that there's an unbalancing combo somewhere) you might as well go whole hog. Yeah, Unfortunately, they last until the next short rest. Since I neither want people running around with masses of thp at the start of each combat nor wish to force short rests (if a char doesn't want to rest, that his business), I don't think these things should that long. Currently, if you stand up from prone while an ally stand on you, you get a free shift - which doesn't particularly make sense to me. Monsters gain 6-10 hp per level, so this represents a 10-17% reduction (less at low levels) Relatively, brutes get the best deal, which is fine by me. I chose to not use a % reduction both because I actually kind of like slightly exagerating the differences between monsters, and because it's easy to calculate. Effectively, it's very similar to a percentage reduction but hopefully easier to calculate. However, you may be right that a larger reduction is warranted, a 2 points per level reduction is probably just as good (and twice that for elites, and 4 times that for solo's). I'm leery of dropping 20-25% of the hit points simply because I like keeping my rules super-simple and their computations doable at a glance. Monster attack bonuses vs. NAD's are about 1.5 points lower than those vs. AC. (in the MM) I accept that NAD attack might be a little nastier than AC attacks, but certainly player NAD's should be no more than 3 worse than AC [I]on average[/I]. Right now a paladin's NAD's start more than 5 points lower than AC [I]on average[/I]. For a more generic character, assume a total of +8 to NADs from stats, +2 from class, and +1 from a light shield, divided over three NADs: that's an average NAD of 13.7. A typical AC would be hide+light shield+4, say, for 18 - or more than 4 lower. Frankly, I think a +1 bonus to nads at first level is on the low end of reasonable, but to avoid changing balance too much, I thought I'd stay conservative. The problem's a little worse than it seems too; although many characters will pick up a few extra AC boosters (a defensive weapon, a better shield, a staff of defense, etc.) those kind of small boosts are harder to get for NADs. Not really - if people boost all stats, the divergence will be less. I don't have a problem with PC's being good in a skill, but right now, it's easy to reach the point where some PC's will always manage a certain skill check and others never. Skills diverge just as badly as NAD's do, and in practice, they tend to diverge more due to the huge effect of skill training. People often play to their strengths, so even at first level, it's not common to have a difference of +10 or more at a given skill within the party. Once you add a few racial bonuses, magic items, tools, armor penalties and whatnot, even without ability modifiers diverging, that's quite likely to get dangerously close to +20: that's not good in my book. I can see how raising all stats seems like a lot at first sight. It does, doesn't it? But really, the extra stats you're raising are the weakest, least interesting stats. Skills won't flatten out; they're already extremely different at level 1, and as people collect items + powers that play to their strengths, they'll still diverge - but now they'll diverge because of a real investment, not because of a non-choice (I mean, who's going to invest one of their two stat boosts in a non-primary stat?). Another reason to raise all the stats is to prevent players from being, well, stupid. I've seen players several times choose to "round off" an uneven stat to a round stat or simply to pick some non-primary/secondary stat because they haven't thought it through. It takes quite a bit of effort to explain that if they're doing that, they're effectively playing at less than 22 point buy (it's cheaper to allocate non-primary/secondary stats at character creation), so that it's almost certainly unwise. These are the players that simply create a PC because it sounds fun, and I don't want to punish them because they didn't preplan their entire PC across 30 levels. Because monsters are considered one level lower than usual, I expect PC's with these rules will actually be pretty much the same strength (relative to the monsters) as usual. Monsters gain a level but lose HP (effectively gaining +1 att/defenses and a bit cooler powers+damage), whereas pc's gain several feats over the course of their career (expertise +epic defense stuff) and roughly +1 to NADs. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
House rules for Improved Game Balance.
Top