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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6633310" data-attributes="member: 92511"><p>That is entirely possible. The latter part is, basically, what I meant/was wrapped up in saying a difference of "playstyle" would also be a factor. I do not have players who are interested in playing D&D like a video game. We don't come to the game with those expectations or experience. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That could well be part of it...the "I don't mind" part, but truly, we simply don't look at it in that way. "Group initiative" has been a part of the game up to...I suppose 3e. I never played it.</p><p></p><p>But the assertion this somehow is "taking something [tactical challenge/interest] away" or making the game "easier" than it is intended just doesn't make sense to me. </p><p></p><p>Folks seem to like and things are often clearer (especially on the internet) with examples. So let's do that. We'll take you general scenario presented in your first post. I'll add a couple of characters since I would probably not be playing with just 2 PCs.</p><p></p><p>The party: </p><p>Bigdumb the Fighter [BF]: no dex. bonus. Int. of 2 [which would actually be an impossibility in my games. Nothing under a 3 is possible for a PC...or any sentient being for that matter. That's nearly brain dead, as we figure it.].</p><p>Everbright the Mage [EM]: let's say a modest +2 dex. bonus for her.</p><p>Littletoes the Halfling Rogue [HR]: +5 dex bonus.</p><p>Swiftblade the Elf Eldritch Knight [EK]: let's say a decent +3 dex bonus here, moreso from his elfishness than any great ability score. [though where the dex bonus is coming from is completely irrelevant]</p><p>Shieldwise the Cleric [SC]: no dex bonus.</p><p></p><p>The foes:</p><p>Bigbad Evilwizard [BBEW]: we'll say a +3 dex. bonus for him.</p><p>5 Orc Bodyguards: no dex bonus.</p><p>7 Goblin Mooks: I give goblins a basic +2 dex. for their speed and shiftiness, to aid their AC as much as their range attacks. Don't know/this might not be 5e RAW.</p><p></p><p>For simplicity of the example, we'll say none of the goblins or orcs have any exceptional abilities or special charactristics or magic items that would be enhancing their dex. rolls/speed.</p><p> </p><p>The stage is set. Both sides are ready to tear each other's faces off. Roll intiative [d10].</p><p></p><p>1) We'll start with the most common scenario: a close roll.</p><p> </p><p>A) DECLARE ACTIONS BEFORE INITIATIVE! Are you casting this round? What are you going to start casting? In 5e, this will include are you "readying an action"? Are you using some special feature/function of your class or race that needs declaration? Fighter says, I charge in sword blazing. Mage says I'm casting fireball. Rogue's goes into stealth mode/dives in some shadows and move about the room [hopefully] unseen. Cleric is going to stand in front of the magess, at the ready for defense. For the purposes of 5e, and as "makes sense" for/from the story and crunch, the intention to use "Bonus Actions" should be declared here (as they mostly require a trigger to occur, we'll see if that actually happens within the fiction. But the intent to use it "if you can/see an opportunity" should be declared here.). Using a "REaction" is not necessary now, obviously, as by their intent and definition can be determined/declared within the round...in "reaction" to something.</p><p></p><p>...I'm sometimes a bit of a softy, so I have been know to allow undeclared Bonus actions within the round...but they know they're not supposed to and most times will be respectful and hold off til the following round if they forget to declare a bonus action. </p><p></p><p>B)Let's say, DM rolls 5. Player 1 [BF] happens to be rolling group initiative this round, rolls 6.</p><p></p><p>At a glance: I know HR gets 11, EK is 9, EM gets 8, BF & SC are 6. </p><p></p><p>On my [DM's] side: BBEW is 8. Goblins are 7. Orcs [3 of whom are on "bodyguard duty" and know not to move away from Evilwizard/engage in combat right away] are 5. </p><p></p><p>C) So the order for the table will be: Halfling Rogue, Eldritch Knight, The party mage and Evilwizard, all Goblins, Fighter & Cleric, 2 orcs.</p><p></p><p>Actions proceed in that order. There is likely no time/place for them to be making plans among themselves. Mage starts casting. Fighter, even though he has the lowest initiative, can get some movement in/started before the spell goes off. If he's not stopped AND the mage doesn't pull her punches, a fireball goes off and, yes, fighter gets burned.</p><p></p><p>That's a narrative concern...that's what's happening in the story.</p><p></p><p>The actions of the characters are theirs to decide....Does the fighter hold back and wait to move until his turn? Does the magess stop casting when she sees the fighter charge forward? Does the cleric throw an arm in front of the fighter to stop him from charging or the halfling grab/pull back on his cloak? Does everyone say "Damned idiot." and let him charge and get burned? Will the goblins get a couple of good strikes in and, as a result of that, lead to different actions from the Fighter & Cleric? None of that, really is dependent on initiative or anything I, as DM, should be trying to control or tell the players. My job is to tell them what happens in the situation as a REaction to their actions.</p><p></p><p>2) Ok. ROUND 2! The Big difference possibility ONE: DM rolls much higher than the party. Let's say DM rolls 8. I would prefer Player 2/next person around the table do it this time, but sometimes they want the same person to keep rolling...what difference does it really make to me if the players all agree to that? None. So...Party rolls 3.</p><p></p><p>At a glance, order is going to be: BBEW 11, Goblins 10, Orcs [that are engaging, remember 3 are staying with the wizard] & HR 8, EK 6, EB 5, BF & SC, again, bringing up the rear [as you see, they will nearly always do] with their unmodified 3.</p><p></p><p>Actions actions actions. All of my guys can go before anyone but the halfling, who is acting with/among/the same as the orcs. </p><p></p><p>3) ROUND 3! Now the part that you claim is making the game too "easy" or taking away tactical options: Big Difference In Reverse: Party rolls an 8. DM rolls a 3 [I'm thinking. "Well, f**. This fight's done now."].</p><p></p><p>At a glance we get: HR 13, EK 11, EB 10, even BF & SC get to go on the 8!, BBEW 6, Goblins 5 & Orcs 3 [whoever's left as the bodyguards are either getting engaged in melee by now or the only guys left].</p><p></p><p>SO, the whole party is going first. I know that. They know that. They want to coordinate something - again in a relatively quick deliberation "out-of-game"/yelling instructions to each other "in-game"? What difference to me/DM-controlled actions does that make? None. They all go first. </p><p></p><p>Really, by now, I would expect nearly the whole thing to be over and from what I've heard and can tell from a 5e combat this is likely so. Any foes left alive are probably going to try to surrender or flee (if they haven't already).</p><p></p><p>And, as you see and seemed concerned about, everyone is still getting "their own" initiative score and going in a [potentially] different order when mixed with whatever their fighting...but not their own initiative roll. And, you see how, relatively easily/quickly, the party is going to get the hang of "party order" most of the time...and combat becomes a matter of determining when they act in relation to what they're fighting...and fighting/coordinating accordingly/as possible.</p><p></p><p>If this, somehow "ruins" a tactical element of the game for you...or your players...then I suppose just don't use it. But there is no "objective" worse/easier/less [tactically] to this method.</p><p></p><p>So...there...I don't know if that's made things more clear or not. hahaha.[/HR]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 6633310, member: 92511"] That is entirely possible. The latter part is, basically, what I meant/was wrapped up in saying a difference of "playstyle" would also be a factor. I do not have players who are interested in playing D&D like a video game. We don't come to the game with those expectations or experience. That could well be part of it...the "I don't mind" part, but truly, we simply don't look at it in that way. "Group initiative" has been a part of the game up to...I suppose 3e. I never played it. But the assertion this somehow is "taking something [tactical challenge/interest] away" or making the game "easier" than it is intended just doesn't make sense to me. Folks seem to like and things are often clearer (especially on the internet) with examples. So let's do that. We'll take you general scenario presented in your first post. I'll add a couple of characters since I would probably not be playing with just 2 PCs. The party: Bigdumb the Fighter [BF]: no dex. bonus. Int. of 2 [which would actually be an impossibility in my games. Nothing under a 3 is possible for a PC...or any sentient being for that matter. That's nearly brain dead, as we figure it.]. Everbright the Mage [EM]: let's say a modest +2 dex. bonus for her. Littletoes the Halfling Rogue [HR]: +5 dex bonus. Swiftblade the Elf Eldritch Knight [EK]: let's say a decent +3 dex bonus here, moreso from his elfishness than any great ability score. [though where the dex bonus is coming from is completely irrelevant] Shieldwise the Cleric [SC]: no dex bonus. The foes: Bigbad Evilwizard [BBEW]: we'll say a +3 dex. bonus for him. 5 Orc Bodyguards: no dex bonus. 7 Goblin Mooks: I give goblins a basic +2 dex. for their speed and shiftiness, to aid their AC as much as their range attacks. Don't know/this might not be 5e RAW. For simplicity of the example, we'll say none of the goblins or orcs have any exceptional abilities or special charactristics or magic items that would be enhancing their dex. rolls/speed. The stage is set. Both sides are ready to tear each other's faces off. Roll intiative [d10]. 1) We'll start with the most common scenario: a close roll. A) DECLARE ACTIONS BEFORE INITIATIVE! Are you casting this round? What are you going to start casting? In 5e, this will include are you "readying an action"? Are you using some special feature/function of your class or race that needs declaration? Fighter says, I charge in sword blazing. Mage says I'm casting fireball. Rogue's goes into stealth mode/dives in some shadows and move about the room [hopefully] unseen. Cleric is going to stand in front of the magess, at the ready for defense. For the purposes of 5e, and as "makes sense" for/from the story and crunch, the intention to use "Bonus Actions" should be declared here (as they mostly require a trigger to occur, we'll see if that actually happens within the fiction. But the intent to use it "if you can/see an opportunity" should be declared here.). Using a "REaction" is not necessary now, obviously, as by their intent and definition can be determined/declared within the round...in "reaction" to something. ...I'm sometimes a bit of a softy, so I have been know to allow undeclared Bonus actions within the round...but they know they're not supposed to and most times will be respectful and hold off til the following round if they forget to declare a bonus action. B)Let's say, DM rolls 5. Player 1 [BF] happens to be rolling group initiative this round, rolls 6. At a glance: I know HR gets 11, EK is 9, EM gets 8, BF & SC are 6. On my [DM's] side: BBEW is 8. Goblins are 7. Orcs [3 of whom are on "bodyguard duty" and know not to move away from Evilwizard/engage in combat right away] are 5. C) So the order for the table will be: Halfling Rogue, Eldritch Knight, The party mage and Evilwizard, all Goblins, Fighter & Cleric, 2 orcs. Actions proceed in that order. There is likely no time/place for them to be making plans among themselves. Mage starts casting. Fighter, even though he has the lowest initiative, can get some movement in/started before the spell goes off. If he's not stopped AND the mage doesn't pull her punches, a fireball goes off and, yes, fighter gets burned. That's a narrative concern...that's what's happening in the story. The actions of the characters are theirs to decide....Does the fighter hold back and wait to move until his turn? Does the magess stop casting when she sees the fighter charge forward? Does the cleric throw an arm in front of the fighter to stop him from charging or the halfling grab/pull back on his cloak? Does everyone say "Damned idiot." and let him charge and get burned? Will the goblins get a couple of good strikes in and, as a result of that, lead to different actions from the Fighter & Cleric? None of that, really is dependent on initiative or anything I, as DM, should be trying to control or tell the players. My job is to tell them what happens in the situation as a REaction to their actions. 2) Ok. ROUND 2! The Big difference possibility ONE: DM rolls much higher than the party. Let's say DM rolls 8. I would prefer Player 2/next person around the table do it this time, but sometimes they want the same person to keep rolling...what difference does it really make to me if the players all agree to that? None. So...Party rolls 3. At a glance, order is going to be: BBEW 11, Goblins 10, Orcs [that are engaging, remember 3 are staying with the wizard] & HR 8, EK 6, EB 5, BF & SC, again, bringing up the rear [as you see, they will nearly always do] with their unmodified 3. Actions actions actions. All of my guys can go before anyone but the halfling, who is acting with/among/the same as the orcs. 3) ROUND 3! Now the part that you claim is making the game too "easy" or taking away tactical options: Big Difference In Reverse: Party rolls an 8. DM rolls a 3 [I'm thinking. "Well, f**. This fight's done now."]. At a glance we get: HR 13, EK 11, EB 10, even BF & SC get to go on the 8!, BBEW 6, Goblins 5 & Orcs 3 [whoever's left as the bodyguards are either getting engaged in melee by now or the only guys left]. SO, the whole party is going first. I know that. They know that. They want to coordinate something - again in a relatively quick deliberation "out-of-game"/yelling instructions to each other "in-game"? What difference to me/DM-controlled actions does that make? None. They all go first. Really, by now, I would expect nearly the whole thing to be over and from what I've heard and can tell from a 5e combat this is likely so. Any foes left alive are probably going to try to surrender or flee (if they haven't already). And, as you see and seemed concerned about, everyone is still getting "their own" initiative score and going in a [potentially] different order when mixed with whatever their fighting...but not their own initiative roll. And, you see how, relatively easily/quickly, the party is going to get the hang of "party order" most of the time...and combat becomes a matter of determining when they act in relation to what they're fighting...and fighting/coordinating accordingly/as possible. If this, somehow "ruins" a tactical element of the game for you...or your players...then I suppose just don't use it. But there is no "objective" worse/easier/less [tactically] to this method. So...there...I don't know if that's made things more clear or not. hahaha.[/HR] [/QUOTE]
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