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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 5060023" data-attributes="member: 5890">That doesn't matter in the slightest. If a player is made to feel that the group would be better off without him because of the system, the system has failed whether or not it forces participation.Incidentally, I was writing out how a round would go under my system, and I came to the conclusion that the challenge should probably be doing something with the worst DC success as well as the best, otherwise the PCs can get away with one person doing very tough attempts and everyone else bottoming out on unfailable skill DCs.So, the challenge will roll against the DC of the highest successful attempt as well as the lowest DC attempted. It gets 1 success for each challenge it succeeds against.So, an example of play:The scenario is that the players are crossing a raging river. The primary skills for the challenge are endurance and athletics, which means that the river has a +5 skill modifier in each of those. Secondary skills are knowledge nature, perception and acrobatics, and the river has +10 in each of those. In all other skills the river has a +15 modifier. I'll say that the players need 4 successes before the challenge gets the same, although this is just pulled out of thin air at this stage.Initiative is rolled. The order of play is player1, challenge, player2, player3 and player4Player1: "I need to set a high DC, or the river's going to own us on it's go. I'm good at acrobatics so I'll use that to vault across with a pole. I figure that's pretty hard, so I'll shoot for a dc 23"DM:"Jumping is the domain of athletics. Acrobatics is all about tumbling and falling."Player1:"Ok, how about swinging? That's pretty much what acrobats do. I'll throw a grappling hook at a high point on a tree and swing across"DM: "Sounds good, roll it"Player1:"Ok, I get a 27. Success!"Challenge: The highest successful DC from the previous round is 23, acrobatics. The lowest attempted DC is also 23, acrobatics. The river rolls twice with a +10 mod and gets one success.DM:"Ok, as you are swinging, the branch that you're swinging from bows a little. Your feet hit the water. Because you chose a high tree to swing from however, your swing is merely stopped by the river, you don't actually plunge in. The river got one success"Player2:"I'm not really very good at anything physical, and I don't think that knowledge:religion is going to help. I'll just pick up a big stone, hold my breath and try to wade across. I'll go with an athletics DC 10"DM:"Ok, you know that there's a good chance that the river can make that, right?"Player2:"Well, hopefully it's got a worse chance than I do. *roll* 8. Sigh"DM:"You drop the rock and start floating. You haven't been washed  away yet, but it looks like it might be coming..."Player3:"I'll try to see if there's anywhere downstream that might be better"DM: "Well, I need a difficulty. Do you just want somewhere that's easier to cross, or would you like to try to find somewhere that you can save your friend? Or somewhere that's both?"Player3:"I'll shoot for both."DM:"Ok, that's going to be a difficult roll. DC25"Player3:"That's a little high. Can I go for a DC20 to find a high branch that crosses the river?"DM:"Yeah, sounds good to me, roll away"Player3:"20! right on the money"DM:"Yup, you find a high branch that overhangs the river. It's not perfect though: it's a little flimsy to be honest".Player4:"I've got a good endurance and a good athletics. I might jump in and try to help player2 get to player1's rope. It's still dangling in the water, right?"DM:"Yeah, it sure is"Player4:"Ok, so is that endurance or athletics? And what's my DC?"DM: "Well, athletics covers jumping and swimming, so it's perfect for this. I'll say a DC 15"Player4:"That seems a bit too easy. I can do better than that! Forget the rope, I'm just going to try to grab player2 and swim all the way across. Sign me up for a DC 20... *rolls* aww man! 19!"DM:"Ok, you manage to get to player2, and you are making decent headway with him until you get fouled in player1's trailing rope."Player1:"Well, it's my go next, so I'm going to try to haul in the rope and free them"DM:"Well, that seems more like a brute-force type of solution, so it's going to be athletics"Player1:"In that case, I'm going to go for something easy..."DM:"Hanging from a rope above a raging torrent AND trying to haul it in at the same time is easy?"Player1:"Yeah, you're right. I'll climb down the rope to them and try to get them untangled. DC 14 sound good?"DM:"Sure"Player1: "Success!"Challenge: Highest successful DC is 20 perception, lowest attempted is 10 athletics. The river succeeds at perception and fails at athletics.DM:"Ok, the current of the river eddies and whorls apathetically at you, like it's not even trying to sweep you away. However the tree that player3 spotted is actually a stinging willow, and touching it can result in painful burns."Player2: "I'll try to climb up the rope, DC15. Success!"At this point the players have won the challenge, 4 to 2. The DM rounds everything out in a sane manner.DM:"Ok, you haul yourself up. Player4 swims the rope across to the far side and you all hop off. Player3 can simply walk across the branch that he's found, because touching the bark with his shoes has no effect, it was only going to be an issue if he'd needed to lie down and haul someone up. Congratulations, you've passed the challenge!"Note that I've not run the statistics to see how many successes for each side are likely to result in a win or loss. At a guess, its going to be a ratio of 2 successes for the PCs to every success for the challenge assuming a 4 person group if you want a 50/50 success/fail rate. Requiring less successes for the PCs makes the challenge quicker and easier. Requireing more successes for the challenge means the challenge will be roughly the same duration but easier. Lowering the challenges skills will make the challenge easier, but it's not going to be even slightly linear.</blockquote>

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