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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Houserules to make 5e like 1e or 2e (things I've used for the past year) -thoughts?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7271632" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>So use lower-level spell slots for things other than damage. </p><p> They did, and they still do in 5e, but not always in the same ways. In the classic game (0D&D, 1e, BECMI) spells scaled with your caster level, but saving throws only got easier (they scaled with the level of the target), so while your spells got more and more potent as you got higher level and the spells got higher level, similar-level targets got more and more likely to save vs them. </p><p>The net effect was that high level spells that granted saves often did nothing, while low-level spells that scaled damage/level and save:1/2 could be overwhelmingly powerful at high level. </p><p></p><p>In 2e some spells were capped and stopped scaling at a given point. Aside from that, the same as before, lower level spells didn't do overwhelming damage in spite of save:1/2, but some mid-high level spells still could.</p><p></p><p>In 3e, spells scaled with caster level (which had a more specific meaning) and some were still capped, but Save DCs scaled with spell level, while save bonuses scaled quite poorly, so, your highest-level spells were extremely difficult, even all but impossible to save against. </p><p></p><p>In 4e, spells scaled like everything else, as you accumulated bonuses from leveling and other sources, and, roughly, with spell level, as it mapped to Tier. </p><p></p><p>In 5e, spells scale with slot level, but save DCs scale with Character Level, while save bonuses often don't scale at all, and cantrips scale with character level, as well. So, while a low level slot may not do a lot of damage, if it imposes anything at all on a save, it gets increasingly likely to work at higher levels, in addition to becoming a more trivial resources as you gain more and more slots.</p><p></p><p> The classic game 'balanced' with casters weak/lagging at very low level, everyone getting their moment some of the time in that 'sweet spot,' and casters dominating at high level. That's not balanced, at all, really, it's just varied imbalances. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> 2e was not appreciably different. 3e, with untouchable optimized save DCs, utterly broken spells like Polymorph, and more spell slots than ever, was, well, utterly broken - Tier 1 classes dominated out of low level. 4e was oddly balanced for D&D. 5e has swapped around some of the old issues - scaling damage with slot means that 'cheap' low-level spells don't become overwhelming at high level even when you save for 1/2, but scaling save DC with character level means slots 'work' more and more often, even as you get more and more of them.</p><p></p><p> Yep, that was on odd and inconsistent take on it. Not as odd and inconsistent as being essentially absent in 4e, but still, a departure. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p> With regard to the specific issues touched upon, above. You could get more of a classic-game feel out of 5e if you: Replaced scaling DCs with fixed DCs based on the type of effect, and had all saves scale with level as if you were proficient.</p><p>And: scaled spells with level instead of slot (ballpark it to scaling all spells you cast as if they were using your highest level slot).</p><p>And: instituted magic resistance as giving a save to negate any spell, regardless of what it's normal save was, /in addition to the normal save./</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7271632, member: 996"] So use lower-level spell slots for things other than damage. They did, and they still do in 5e, but not always in the same ways. In the classic game (0D&D, 1e, BECMI) spells scaled with your caster level, but saving throws only got easier (they scaled with the level of the target), so while your spells got more and more potent as you got higher level and the spells got higher level, similar-level targets got more and more likely to save vs them. The net effect was that high level spells that granted saves often did nothing, while low-level spells that scaled damage/level and save:1/2 could be overwhelmingly powerful at high level. In 2e some spells were capped and stopped scaling at a given point. Aside from that, the same as before, lower level spells didn't do overwhelming damage in spite of save:1/2, but some mid-high level spells still could. In 3e, spells scaled with caster level (which had a more specific meaning) and some were still capped, but Save DCs scaled with spell level, while save bonuses scaled quite poorly, so, your highest-level spells were extremely difficult, even all but impossible to save against. In 4e, spells scaled like everything else, as you accumulated bonuses from leveling and other sources, and, roughly, with spell level, as it mapped to Tier. In 5e, spells scale with slot level, but save DCs scale with Character Level, while save bonuses often don't scale at all, and cantrips scale with character level, as well. So, while a low level slot may not do a lot of damage, if it imposes anything at all on a save, it gets increasingly likely to work at higher levels, in addition to becoming a more trivial resources as you gain more and more slots. The classic game 'balanced' with casters weak/lagging at very low level, everyone getting their moment some of the time in that 'sweet spot,' and casters dominating at high level. That's not balanced, at all, really, it's just varied imbalances. ;) 2e was not appreciably different. 3e, with untouchable optimized save DCs, utterly broken spells like Polymorph, and more spell slots than ever, was, well, utterly broken - Tier 1 classes dominated out of low level. 4e was oddly balanced for D&D. 5e has swapped around some of the old issues - scaling damage with slot means that 'cheap' low-level spells don't become overwhelming at high level even when you save for 1/2, but scaling save DC with character level means slots 'work' more and more often, even as you get more and more of them. Yep, that was on odd and inconsistent take on it. Not as odd and inconsistent as being essentially absent in 4e, but still, a departure. ;) With regard to the specific issues touched upon, above. You could get more of a classic-game feel out of 5e if you: Replaced scaling DCs with fixed DCs based on the type of effect, and had all saves scale with level as if you were proficient. And: scaled spells with level instead of slot (ballpark it to scaling all spells you cast as if they were using your highest level slot). And: instituted magic resistance as giving a save to negate any spell, regardless of what it's normal save was, /in addition to the normal save./ [/QUOTE]
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Houserules to make 5e like 1e or 2e (things I've used for the past year) -thoughts?
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