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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jimlock" data-source="post: 5721107" data-attributes="member: 6674931">Don't forget that Vegepygmy's quote from the PHB ends like this:A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion.Now, you might try to argue that poking something for a few rounds is not the same as throwing a pebble at it....and I agree,  but this is where  pragmatism has to come in.Please tell me, how you describe (as a DM) a pebble going through an illusionary wall to the player who threw it and is paying attention to the result.?Let me try:"The pebble just vanished into the stone... perhaps even faster than a hot knife cutting into butter. But the rocky surface did not react. Bizarrely, the sound of the pebble hitting on the stony surface was...late. It was heard only after the small piece of rock had disappeared into the cave's wall for good..."Now IMHO opinion this is a decent, impartial, description of the effect an attentative PC experiences.Now in my book this is enough proof to disbelieve an Illusion. Even more, I think this is proof that the illusion isn't real, thus making the save worthless. But even if you argue that the PC does not have enough proof to know that the illusion isn't real (??? - I 'm wandering how you could sell that to the players - ???) and you allow for a save... The PC will eventually get to it, either by trying again, either by throwing bigger things... either by poking it at close distance... EVENTUALLY he will know for sure. ....So much for a 6th - 5th - 4th level Illusion spell... and it all started because of a cantrip detecting it without a sweat.As for your assessment based on that single line("The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.") .... it's wrong. Let me clarify:Silent ImageIllusion (Figment)This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.Minor ImageIllusion (Figment)This spell functions like silent image, except that minor image includes some minor sounds but not understandable speech.Major ImageIllusion (Figment)This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately. (we'll come back later to what that means...)Persistent ImageIllusion (Figment)This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal components, and the figment follows a script determined by you. The figment follows that script without your having to concentrate on it. The illusion can include intelligible speech if you wish.Permanent ImageIllusion (Figment)This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, and the spell is permanent. By concentrating, you can move the image within the limits of the range, but it is static while you are not concentrating.Programmed ImageIllusion (Figment)This spell functions like silent image, except that this spell’s figment activates when a specific condition occurs. The figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, including intelligible speech.You set the triggering condition (which may be a special word) when casting the spell. The event that triggers the illusion can be as general or as specific and detailed as desired but must be based on an audible, tactile, olfactory, or visual trigger. The trigger cannot be based on some quality not normally obvious to the senses, such as alignment. (See magic mouth for more details about such triggers.)Illusory WallIllusion (Figment)This spell creates the illusion of a wall, floor, ceiling, or similar surface. It appears absolutely real when viewed, but physical objects can pass through it without difficulty. When the spell is used to hide pits, traps, or normal doors, any detection abilities that do not require sight work normally. Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear.--------------------------FigmentA figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.--------------------------Hallucinatory TerrainIllusion (Glamer)You make natural terrain look, sound, and smell like some other sort of natural terrain. Structures, equipment, and creatures within the area are not hidden or changed in appearance.Disguise SelfIllusion (Glamer)You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.Mirage ArcanaIllusion (Glamer)This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location).--------------------------GlamerA glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.--------------------------...so out of all those illusions, only Mirage Arcana is safe from touch detection.... and even then it won't hold long if a character pushes forward with his investigation. One might be able to "feel" a Mirage Arcana effect, but the illusion is "unreal", and cannot support weight, which means that if stronger forces are applied on it's surface the illusion won't hold... and consequently it will reveal itself. As for:"The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately." when read in context of all the above, it clearly refers to the casters reaction to make an illusion behave in a way that the false object/creature reacts as if it was actually hit by mundane objects/weapons. It refers to the possibility of imitating the illusion's reaction s in respect to the mundane environment around it.</blockquote>

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