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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 3352633" data-attributes="member: 9789">To avoid hijacking Milayl's thread completely, I wanted to say that DungeonMaester's contributions really seemed to go a long way toward solving some of the long-time problems I've encountered in my own tinkering with mana point systems.  Increasing the cost of spells exponentially always seemed like the most "fair" way to balance the system, but in the end the math was overwhelming and therefore useless.  Limiting the number of points was the other way to go, but I couldn't find a good way to go about this until I read the quite obvious and intuitive system proposed in Milayl's thread.Along these lines, I've thrown together a quick expanded version of DungeonMaester's suggestion, which I believe is still simple and also accounts for several of the various quirks and intricacies that need to be protected in order to maintain a balanced system.  The assumptions I've worked from include the idea that limiting the absolute total number of spells per day is balanced with the idea of casting potentially more (but not too many more) than the normal number of upper level spells and gaining spontaneous casting.  Also, spontaneous casters need to be able to maintain sheer firepower superiority over their preparation counterparts as per their current setup, and those with spontaneous substitution abilities need to be able to maintain their level of mastery over these spells as well.  Comments and suggestions welcome:Mana point system (adapted from various suggestions on ENworld, especially from ideas contributed by DungeonMaester)Summary:  (non-legalese version)- mana points per class = total number of spells per day (not including domain spells) + bonus spells from high stats- all spells are spontaneous and cost [spell level + 1] mana points, or [spell level] points if it would have been spontaneously cast or substituted (minimum 1 point)- metamagic requires [spell level + 1] points + 1 point per increased spell level; no change in casting timeTotal Mana Points:  For each spell-casting class, add up the total number of spells per day for that class level along with any bonus spells from a high casting stat.  Domain spells do not count toward this total, but are available to a class as normal (one per spell level available up to the highest level spell known).  For example, a Sorcerer with an 18 CHA would have 5 zero level spells, 3 first level spells, and 1 bonus first level spell, for a total of 9 mana points.  A level 10 cleric with 22 WIS would have 29 mana points (22 from each spell available, disregarding all domain spells [6 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 2], plus 7 more from bonus spells [2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1]) - and in addition, one 5th level domain spell, one 4th level domain spell, and so on.  A level 7 Paladin with a 16 WIS would have 2 points (1 first level spell, 1 bonus spell).  (Note that each spell-casting class taken by a character has a separate mana point "pool.")Casting:  All casting is spontaneous.  (Classes with domain spells may cast their domain spells from any domain available to them.)  Spells cost mana points equal to their spell level + 1.  If a class was naturally a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer or bard), or if a class does not grant zero-level spells (such as a paladin or ranger), spells cast from that class cost mana points equal to their spell level, to a minimum of 1 point.  Classes which can spontaneously substitute spells (such as a cleric's ability to spontaneously substitute cure spells) can cast spells of that type for a mana point cost of their spell level.Metamagic:  If metamagic is applied to a spell, its base cost is always its full mana point cost (equal to spell level + 1).  Further, increase the cost in mana points by the number of spell levels the metamagic would raise the spell.  Also, you cannot increase a spell with metamagic beyond the highest level spell you can normally cast.  For example, an empowered fireball would cost 6 points (4 base cost from the third level spell, plus 2 from empower) and require the ability to cast fifth level spells.  A quickened fireball would cost 8 points and require the ability to cast seventh level spells.  Metamagic does not increase the casting time for spells.All other spell-casting traits:  As normal for the class.  Normal resting rules for regaining spells also apply for regaining mana points.</blockquote>

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