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Message: <blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 4974443" data-attributes="member: 43019">I don't. I actually meant that if you wanted it instant (so that you could use it for things like, say, being able to cart away a dead or dying ally in combat, get over a piece of harmful terrain, prop up a falling statue, that kind of thing, I imagine), you should reduce the power of the base ritual. Since Tenser's Disc is a great ritual, as written, and earlier I said that at high level it's worth casting every day.And 35g and 1 healing surge per lock _attempt_ already does that. In fact, not dealing with traps already does that. Even in previous editions, Knock didn't trump lockpicks, because locks were no big deal.And if by 'in encounters' you mean 'in combat' then the 1 minute time I suggested does _that_ too.Again, I'm not the guy who suggested instant rituals.And other than for item enchant/transferral/disenchantment, it would have instead been in the couple of modules where I've seen the rituals Tenser's Disc and Knock tried to use to solve problems:'I cast a ritual.''DM: How long does it take?''10 minutes''DM: Okay, anyone else want to solve the problem before he wastes his time and spell components?'I wasn't talking about Thievery. I was talking about the 'Crowbar' skill. And fwiw, my artificer with thievery still has the Knock ritual. It was on a ritual book. I learned it. If I ever chose to cast it - and it'd need to be a lock that I couldn't get through on a 34 (+14 after bonuses, take 20), but thought was worth trying by rolling +20s at 35g and a surge each _and_ thought wasn't worth just destroying the lock.Knock isn't superior if you're worried about time. Or noise. Or expense. It's _only_ superior if you can't stand to break the lock you're going through _and_ can't use Thievery. Since opening a lock doesn't require training in the skill, that also means that the, say, archer who picked up thieves tools can 'take 20' (in one fifth the time required for the ritual) and get through any tier appropriate lock. Oh, I have no particular intention of ever casting Knock. Even without access to someone with Thievery, Knock is so badly designed that its usability is minimal. Which is my point. There _are_ some good rituals, but Knock is a fantastic example of a _bad_ one. Which is partially what we were discussing (we have wandered far afield indeed).</blockquote>

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