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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jedi_Solo" data-source="post: 3255392" data-attributes="member: 40245">Our group has been playing 3.X since it came out.  Many different campaigns over the years.  Our current campaign is the first one to get up to 20th level.  We started at 1st and my Bard PC is one of two characters that has survived to see 20th level.  I also have a rep as being a 'Kill Stealer'.  I must be doing something right in combat if I am doing damage and surviving to tell about it.I have been told by other players that I inspired them them to play Bards in other campaigns.Bards don't suck.  However, they may be the most difficult to play of the core classes for a variety of reasons.  Some "in book" and some "out of book".Bardic magic doesn't match anything else.  It isn't a full progression like Cleric or Wizard and it isn't even a 'delayed full' like the Sorcerer has.  It also isn't a half progession like Paladin or Cleric.  A few non-core classes have messed up progressions as well and one may match the Bard but none are coming to mind.Bardic Music is one of the main aspects of the class and it also follows its own set of rules.  Nothing that I can think of really matches it.  The +X/+X mechanic of it is easy enough to follow but it has a tendancy to act like a six round buff no matter the level.  When I cast Haste it lasts my caster level in rounds.  When I Inspire Courage it only lasts five additional rounds - just like when I was first level - and after a full round 'casting' to boot.  Sure, I can keep singing to make it last longer but I usually want to cast another spell or something that casues the countdown to start very quickly - another odd aspect of the ability.[Small tangent] Neverwinter Nights 2 seems to take aspects of the Marshal and place them onto the Bard.  The Bardic Music in the game is a fairly close match to the Marshal's Aura ability with the Bard being able to change out the music like the Auras.  I like this concept and would like to see something like that for 4e.  It would also match the Paladin's aura setup to cut down on how many the Bardic Rules follow their own rules. [/tangent]As has been mentioned the Bard isn't Best in anything.  Most of the other classes are ment to be Best and the Bard isn't one of them.  This requires a certain kind of player.  One that is content to sit back as other celbrate victories and high dmage outputs and be able to say to myself 'I rock because I helped with that'.  If a player sits down and does the math the Bard can easily be the one doing the most amount of damage in combat assuming the group is large enough.  With the Bard just adding +2 to damage - a four character group is doing 8 damage from the Bardic Music alone if there are just four hits in the round (assuming each PC hit once - or maybe the fighter hit twice while the wizard missed or did something else - you get the idea).  That isn't including the Bard's own die roll for damage or the fact that since everyone also had +2 to hit the Bard may be causing hits where the d20 roll wasn't actually high enough for the hit.  The bard can easily be a spectacular damage dealer - he's just not the one rolling the dice meaning that the Bard easily gets overlooked when high fives are thrown about.  The player needs to be fine with not getting 100% or the recognition they deserve.The Bard is an oddity - and arguably the oddist of the base classes (with the Monk being the other main contender fo the title).  It has its own rules that no one else uses and its biggest combat contributions are actually done by other people so the player themself can't be a glory hound (or else the character will be retired fairly quickly).  Nothing wrong with the Glory Hound Player (I want the spotlight some of the time myself).  The Bard just isn't a good match for them.</blockquote>

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