Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Firebeetle" data-source="post: 3262238" data-attributes="member: 34506">Rebuttals, part oneLadies and gentlemen, I love the bard. I love playing a bard. I love to talk my way through things, to make a joke and have it be a game mechanic (my personal favorite is to play "Eye of the Tiger" when I use bardic music), but let's face facts. Our class sucks. We deserve better. I understand the desire to see "suckage" as "exclusive" and I indeed enjoy making the best out of a rotten class. But a class' strength should not be based on that ability of the player or the DM. I should be based on the rules and the rules alone.Responses so far:Of course not, I meant roleplaying. Hence the word “roleplay.”You’ll need some detail here, because I’m not seeing it. Intimidate isn’t a bard class skill, btw. No level of Bluff can convince someone to do something that might hurt them. You can’t Bluff someone past the boundaries of logic.True that! Double true! More and better songs please!No, most are Small or Medium, not Fine.I multiclass, each of my bard builds is built around “borrowing” abilities from another class. “The Scoundrel” Bard/Rogue- uses knives, Bluff, and feign to get targets to lower AC, still lots of skill points that cross over. Rogues are, after all, better at being bards than bards are. More on that later.“The Skald” Barbarian/Bard- High STR, CON and Goad feat to draw fire and damage while dishing it out. With a little player knowledge of historical bards, this one works well. “The Stage Actor” Fighter/Bard- A Petruchio style character with a whip, high STR, and Improved Disarm and Trip. “The Standard Bearer” Bard/Marshal- Sadly, the Marshal is better at buffing characters than the bard is : (. This is a morale-boosting military man with decent fighting skills. I could go straight marshal with this concept and probably be far more effective though.“High Priest of Olidamarra” Bard/Cleric. Haven’t done this one yet, but I’m looking forward to it.Multiclassing is the only way to remove the bard’s ills. I would ultimately prefer a class I could just play straight up without feeling the need to apologize to the rest of the party every time.Negative on the first, My closest mirror class is superior in every way. Rogues get the same hit die, better skill points, better fighting ability, and special abilities and buffs. I get less skill points, less fighting ability, and no buffs to my ability (that I don’t make myself.) I get in return, a hand-me-down spell list with a mediocre spellcasting ability. I don’t even get many spells that are bard only. I don’t get any spells that would be considered “powerful” for their level except on paper.Positive on the second. They do take more effort, a LOT more. But that’s just to survive.Druid? 1st level bard vs 1st level druid. Bard: I singDruid (to wolf): sic ‘em Wolvie!Bard: AAARGH, HE’S GOT MY LEG! HE’S EATING MY LEG! NO BEATING HIM WITH MY LUTE WILL ABATE HIM!You know, historically speaking these guys were warriors, right?We are MUCH better in 3.5? 6 skill points and Gnome as favored class? What are you talking about?!They are not best at anything, including what bards are suppousedly “good for”, Bluff and Diplomacy. That would be rogues, sorcerers, and psions.edited so the moderator won't frownYou mean the spell you get when you’re SEVENTH LEVEL (presuming high attribute?) Your contention this is a buff for the bard is laughable. The bard gods have a cruel sense of humor. Yes, I’m aware of the existence of Glibness “eh?”If I have to give it to myself, it’s not a buff. It’s a spell. A rogue doesn’t have to give herself the ability to disable magical traps, she just has it. A ranger doesn’t cast “favored enemy”, he just has it. Why don’t I HAVE a buff to Bluff or Diplomacy? You’re smugly saying I can use a rare high level (for me) spell slot for a buff and that’s it, that’s my Bluff buff? No double Charisma modifier for those skills? No bonus for one or the other like a +3 familiar/psicrystal bonus? A 3rd level SPELL is my BUFF? I want my money back on my PHB if that’s the case.Core bard is weak! Thank you, thank you, voice of sanity there.Be aware, anytime a bard manages to shine, people say “it’s overpowered” JUST because it’s a bard. So I’m supposed to carry two suits of armor around like summer and winter jackets? It takes several minutes to change, not exactly convenient given most combats don't give minutes to prepare. None of the other classes have to carry two suits of armor around! Yes, we’ve established that I can use spells to improve my effectiveness, so can a (in alphabetical order) cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer, and wizard. Often to far greater effect.As for the cure spell thing, can someone please tell me WHY bards have Cure spells? What legendary bard could also Cure Serious Wounds? Anyone? Anyone? It certainly seems out of character. Oh, wait, I know why. It’s because the designers know that BARDS SUCK and they give them a little stick, a little bone there to make us feel better. Having said that, I have started using cure spells in my high level campaign. They help. A jester casting a cure spell sure seems weird though.I recommend it. Please post your response I would love to hear about your first level bard experience. Druid: “I have my animal companion with me at all times”Cleric: “I can turn undead many times today”Bard: “I can buff everyone for +1, but only for once a day since I’m first level. My primary ability will be much more useful when I reach many more levels, provided I survive that long.”Barbarian “Roc take Extra Rage feat to rage more than once a day, you take Extra Pretty Singing feat!”Bard (tears well up in eyes): “I wish I COULD do that Roc, I wish. . .”How about bardic music uses per day equal to number of bard levels plus Charisma modifier. THEN you could add abilities or feat that take up multiple bardic music uses (some exist already to some degree in CA.) That would be nice, wouldn’t that be nice?What do those last four letters stand for? Year 2005? : )I agree with the multiclass thing. It is a great multiclass class. I don’t want it to be, I want to play a straightforward bard and have it be constantly and consistently effective.I’m glad you had a successful experience with one, good for you. No sarcasm, I’m glad when other people enjoy the class.As for big groups, if my party has to have 12 guys to quantify his abilities, I’m going out on a limb and saying it’s broken.I am a creative, imaginative player who milks the bard for every penny he’s worth. I’m also a DM with 25 years experience who knows how to compare a class. I guarantee you it is not my handling of the bard, it’s much bigger than that. I play in two campaigns and run a gameday. I don't have an experience limited to a single table.Yes, many little boosts have been included in later material, that’s because the designers know more than anyone else that BARDS SUCK!You see, if I’m a fighter, I can do my fighter thing straight out of the PHB. If I’m a wizard, or sorcerer, or cleric, the PHB is all I need. If I’m a rogue, I might want to see the Arms and Equipment guide, but I’m OK just as is. But if I’m a bard, I have to buy at least $60 more of books just to get my power level up to “not so bad?” Geesh. Again with the money back thing.Nah, it’s the class dude. You may choose not to see it, but it’s there, it’s so there. I played a Verbobonc mod with another bard at the table at Gen Con. We were so very, very lucky to have survived. Many went to “dying” on that day.You know that’s totally weird, because I find being effective as a bard means being somebody else, as per the prior response.Not weak? I have a lousy BAB, lousy hit die, lousy spell casting ability, and the one area I’m good in, the Rogue does better! I get 6 skill points per level, she gets 8 points AND Bluff and Perform. Why in the name of Olidamarra does Rogue have Perform?Again with the “I have to buy a bunch of new books” thingie. I shouldn’t have to invest a paycheck into getting a class to be decent.1. Back up healer AND a attack/damage booster? Wowsers, I can be a secondhand Cleric! Of course, they get 8 hit dice and a better BAB. Why can’t I have that BAB. Historically bards were warriors, while priests were, well, not warriors. Warrior clerics are called "Paladins"Bardic Knowledge? The single most vaguely defined class ability in the book! Where is it? Right smack dab at the top of the bard class abilities. Can I tell what a legendary monster’s weakness is? No. Can I tell what a fabled artifact does? No. Many use it as a de facto Knowledge (everything) skill, but it’s not that either. You will almost NEVER find a Bardic Knowledge table in an adventure or mod.  More soon. . . .</blockquote>

Verification