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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Firebeetle" data-source="post: 3265033" data-attributes="member: 34506">Responses part 2Sadly NOT true. Bards are great for Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform right? Everybody says so.WRONG! If I want a Diplomat I’m much better off with the Rogue, who has the same skills and more points to spend on them. I have a “Patron Saint of Liars” player in my Eberron campaign with an incredible Bluff. He never even considered Bard, we went straight for Rogue/Sorcerer. He has a higher Bluff than the bard could ever obtain.Bards are supporters, right? Clerics do that way better. Sure, Bless doesn’t add damage bonuses, but it can be cast many more times and lasts much longer without being maintained. Bards are great at knowing all sorts of things, right? Wizard is better, they get less skill points, but have fewer skill demands upon them. Wizards also get quicker access to scrying magics while we get the vague and underused or misused “Bardic Knowledge”Then there are the classes that do a bard’s job better than a bard does, which really hacks me off. See below.I had a first level bard that managed to do final damage on a lot of big creatures. I’m glad you had a good experience. You do describe his piecemeal approach, little bits to add to a greater whole. It is a Frankenstein sort of thing, sometimes the combination works, sometimes I am completely and utterly useless even at high level.As I’ve discussed before, bards should not have to rely on a large party to shine. I would further argue that given the choice of possible supporting classes, cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, or bard, that bard would be the least potentially helpful.Unfortunately, going into dungeons with small parties is something we do a lot of in D&D. The bard should be able to shine there as well. If your bard is an AC powerhouse, it’s not because he’s a bard. It’s because of some other boost. Bards have no AC boosting abilities.Compare that same 11th level bard (more ECL with the tiefling) with the capabilities of the rest of the party. It’s pretty sobering real quick. I’d like to excel at being a bard. I’d like to be able to use Bluff and Diplomacy better than anyone else, but Rogue, Sorcerer, and Psion can all beat me easily. I’d like to cast mind-control magics better than someone else, but wizards and sorcerers get those spells before I ever do, I’d like to be able to pick up a rapier and kick some butt, but doing so with my lousy BAB and hit points is suicide!Are we talking about the same class? My d6 hit die is DECENT?! It’s obscene is what it is, total disregard for the bard’s historical and literary fighting ability. My attack bonus is DECENT?! It’s absolutely pitiful! DECENT SPELLCASTING?! Now that is a joke. I have s substandard ability and a hand-me-down list of spells that aren’t even mine.Again, I’ll repeat. I just want bards to be the best at being bards. We get buffs for everybody except ourselves.Actually, I can’t shine 5 times per evening until I’m 5th level. You see, that’s when my Bardic Music gets to be used 5 times a day. I’d prefer not to wait until 5th level to “shine 5 times a night” thank you.I agree with your second sentence. As I’ve stated, I enjoy making the most of what I’ve got. I shouldn’t have to, it should already be there for me like the rest of the classes.I have an equations for you:Poor BAB + poor hit die + poor spellcasting ability + vague abilities + limited use of bardic music + the never used “countersong” at first level = SUCK!!!All these spells you refer to I cannot access until well after my wizard and sorcerer counterparts can. If you’re going to compare Bards to Rogues remember that rogues get the same hit die, better BAB (they’re thieves, we are fighters, why??), better skill points and access to all the same skills that bards need (Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform.) We suck compared to rogues. I concur completely, Bard would make an EXCELLENT NPC class. Right there with warrior, expert, adept, and aristocrat. Yet, it never happens. I have seen ONE bard as a possible combative NPC for a party in a module, representing a group of artists about to be crushed by the Royal Guard unless the PCs help them. That’s right, the bard was playing the role of the underdog loser. How appropriate.I have a “stage actor” bard who does exactly this.Tell me about it. You have to get improved initiative just so you have a chance to fascinate you opponent before the real combat begins. Did you have any further enlightenment?Nobody seems to have brought up the 1,000 man poll were the bard was the clear loser. Besides the vote getter, many mentioned they voted for something else because the bard was so obvious and they wanted to call attention to their class (fighter, monk, druid, etc.)Eagle’s Splendor is a spell. Again, a spell is an ability, not a buff unless I give it to myself. Other classes get direct buffs they don’t have to cast. There is no “Turn Undead” spell, for example.As for the “hatemongering”, I was referring the typical venom that is thrown at me when I discuss this.Thank you. Modifications made, clear sense that despite modifications, the class is still weak. That is exactly what I have noticed.There will be a time when the bard is going to be revised (which is like, next week if you believe some people.) At that time, there needs to be a very clear cut case for what needs to be done. This obviously WASN’T done prior to 3.5. When it comes to knowing why the bard just doesn’t work, threads like this one or others that crop up because of it will be quite useful. It’s ugly work, but it must be done. We CANNOT have people saying, “the bard is just fine leave it be for 4.0”, that would be a disaster.I am not measuring my worth against any tanks/blasters/bricks/buckets of cement or otherwise. I am measuring success by bards being bards. We are secondhand clerics, we are secondhand rogues, we are secondhand wizards, we are thirdhand fighters, what we AREN’T is first rate bards.No buffs to social skillsNo early access to mind affecting magicNo decent BABNo decent hit dieLimitations or general vagueness about our abilities.Thank you, exactly! That’s it in a nutshell. A performer that doesn’t stand out.I have answered since then, devoting many more words than you, and you apparently decided to back out. C’est la vie.To keep that fire alive. As the bard gets more and more “band-aids” from different D&D products, we must remember that it’s flawed at the core.Ahhh, the Duskblade! The Beguiler! The Dragon Shaman! The Knight! The Marshall! The Jack-of-all-Trades!ALL classes that truly shame the bard. The class is now next to irrelevant in the face of these classes. They either boost other players better, or do some other function better than the bard. It’s truly shameful. Shame on you WotC, shame!</blockquote>

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