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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sejs" data-source="post: 3265118" data-attributes="member: 4910">More yelling at a brick wall. The 'king talker' thing again.  Bard has the skill points to be king talker without sacrificing his expexted abilities in other areas.  A bard focuses on charisma naturally - it's what fuels their spellcasting.  A rogue focuses primarily on dex and int.  If the rogue wants to keep up with the Joneses, he's diverting his efforts from elsewhere.  A bard already has the inclination to shine socially, a rogue who does so does it at the potential sacrifice of his other, uniquely rogue areas of focus (locks, traps, etc).The bard is capable of a higher overall diplomacy score than a rogue is.  Numerical fact, Firebeetle.  Sorry.  The bard is capable of a FAR higher Bluff score than the rogue/sorcerer, straight sorcerer, or psion is.  They can get a snake familiar or a psi crystal for +3.  The bard can cast Glibness (a bard only spell, natch) for +30. Bless and Bardic Music arn't even in the same ballpark other than at 1st level, particularly when feats start coming into the picture.  A cleric tossing around Bless, Prayer, and Holy Aura pales in comparison to a bard with Song of the Heart using Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, and Ironskin Chant. One of the few areas we agree upon is how rarely implemented Bardic Knowledge is.  As for scrying, sorry.  Both classes get access to the spell at 7th level.  The skill point demand on both classes is equally spread.  Wizards have 2+ but need Concentration and Spellcraft to do their jobs.  Bards have 6+ but generally need social skills.  6 of one, half dozen of the other. Inspire Heroics grants dodge AC, but comes to the table late.  Other than (Blur, Mirror Image) that (Cat's Grace) I guess (Blink, Haste) bards really (Displacement, Greater Invis) don't have a way to keep from being hit. If they devote themselves to trying to be the bard.  At about the same time, actually - charm monster/confusion at 7th for both, dominate person at 9th/10th.  And they can NEVER match a bard's save DC against fascinate/suggestion.  Except that with your inspires, that also effect you btw, you can indeed.  A bard is as durable as a rogue in melee unaugmented, when singing about as durable as a fighter. Yes.  Decent.  Middle of the road all across the board.  More BAB and HD than a wizard or sorc, more spellcasting than a rogue, more skills than a fighter. What makes you think your buffs don't work on yourself? Round about the same time, actually.  And would you care to explain how a rogue's 3/4 BAB is somehow better than a bard's 3/4 BAB?  Is one somehow more 3/4 than the other? Yeah, fascinate 'em before they realize you're presenting a threat.  Walk up to some guards solo and apparently unarmed, pretending to be lost or confused - they don't think you're a threat, don't instantly go defensive.  Walk up to some guards in the middle of a cloud of hooligans hooting and waving swords - they get all antsy and call for reinforcements.  Damndest thing.</blockquote>

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