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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6347922" data-attributes="member: 87792">This also happens with points buy.I'm a kinaesthetic learner and used to be both a dancer and a wargamer. How people move matters  to me.  The difference between a shift 1 and a shift 2.  The Paladin  being incentivised for actually getting into the middle of the enemy Not my experience at all.  If we ignore the stock  3.0 Ranger (that was just a mistake), a first level specialist wizard  can cripple three fights per day with either Sleep or Colour Spray.   And between cantrips and more skills they can hold their own out of  combat with any front line non-caster from level 1 onwards.  They are  competitive from first level onwards and pull out a lead at fifth level  with third level spells.  At seventh they've a commanding lead, and by  the time you hit Teleport at 9th it's all over.Wizards pull away  faster than clerics - but the fighter's total advantage over the cleric  at first level is +1 BAB and a single feat; unless that feat is Cleave (which, admittedly, it frequently is) this does not make up for the vastly superior endurance several castings of Cure Light Wounds brings.Rifts is an industry-wide joke this way.Given the house ruling - and specific  house rules for your play group - you can put in a measure of balance.   The basic rule of thumb of the tier system is stark, however: Nothing  that can cast sixth level spells is less than tier 3.  Nothing that  can't (outside the Bo9S) is more than tier 4.oD&D was created by the sort of  fantasy wargamers who wanted to play Aragorn and made a class round it  (1e Rangers) or even a baby Balrog (Mike Mornard played a baby balrog in  both Gygax' and Arneson's original groups).  The vampire as a class  predates the cleric - with the cleric brought in explicitly to counter  the vampire, both from Hammer Horror Studios rather than anything  historical.  And one of the inspirations behind it points was Eroll  Flynn.The core inspiration for D&D was not "What would happen in a historically accurate setting" but "We made up some <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> we thought would be fun".Agreed.   Swashbucklers should be relying on speed and picking their targets -  it's trickier to design and only 4e and Next seem to have come close to  getting it right.Whereas to me there is more variation between two  different (pre-Essentials) 1st level 4e fighters than there is between  any two non-casters in 3.X.  And that includes between e.g. a paladin  and a rogue.This part is based on a fundamental misunderstanding.  4e is the only  edition where, in core, some PCs are mechanically encouraged to jump  right into the middle of the enemy and they get bonusses for it.  Jump  right into the middle of the enemy mob with a rogue in any edition and  you're looking at a Darwin Award. Jump into the middle with a paladin  pre-4e and you're still looking at a Darwin Award whatever the fluff  says.  In 4e, as a Paladin right in the heart of the enemy is exactly where you want to be and where you will be most effective.  And this starts from first level.And  pre-4e wizards were, to me, practically interchangeable.  Their biggest  difference was their equipment.  Which matters a lot - but it's still  your equipment rather than who you are.I know what you look for  in terms of difference is different from what I do.  But to say that 4e  PCs are all the same is to me risible.  You simply do not appreciate the  vast differences between the 4e PCs.Which is a common  response.  But even looking from your perspective, assuming that a  homogenous power structure means the classes are the same, you literally  have one point of variation in 3.X - whether someone's a spellcaster or  not.  (There's arguably a third option for spontaneous casters).And I'm trying to do that while keeping 4e's unmatched variety of play style.   What different people look for is important.  No other D&D to me  has near the variety in play style for martial classes 4e enables (the  Bo9S was a semi-decent first try).I'm also not trying to include every other edition's variety of play style.  I've got an <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XYg00zQiS0HSuEtm0j4arsNdF1hCbWTCuIY1h4QV7PQ/edit" target="_blank">Archivist Wizard</a> - but it's very explicitly an AD&D wizard not a 3.X wizard.  And the 3.X druid can go whistle.What's true is that 4e's classes are differentiated in different ways  to those of prior editions.  When I look at 3.X I find all the  non-casters very samey - and the casters variety boils down to their  spell selection.  (Here I have to give props to the 5e Rogue for being  the first non-4E rogue that actually looks worthwhile - <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GoF4-RICAoZwa6C1lMMmV6SWJTCIybXv5qIpBSgRG2g/edit" target="_blank">which is why I stole its central feature</a>)There are three big problems with 4e:1: Combat takes too long. Fix: Focus on striker-esque abilities, and drop Enhancement and Item bonusses and add them to the basic math2: The way different characters were differentiated changedFix: Bring back many of the old ways while keeping the new3: The presentation was terrible - and more or less required computerised toolsFix: My Trifold class sheets mean the classes are at least short - and can be printed out from any printer.</blockquote>

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