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<blockquote data-quote="Cronocke" data-source="post: 6348522" data-attributes="member: 63379">Monks and fighters in Pathfinder and D&amp;D, every edition except 4th, are useful in basically zero situations, unless the GM bends over backwards to make them valuable. The latter tanks worse than a cleric, and does damage about as well as one. The monk doesn't even have that going for it. Paladins and barbarians are a slight improvement at best. Rogues have the main advantage of being able to use magic items and having loads of skill points. Half of the classes in the core rulebook are flat out worse than the other half, sometimes to an extreme degree.So, the iconic class-and-level game makes half or more of the classes bad.Now, you may say that it's not a well-designed class system, to which I'd agree, but then what is? Does Legends of the Wulin count, in which your class mostly determines what skill you use to regain chi, and what bits of lore you get for free (though there are factions you can join that do bigger things)? Are World of Darkness games class systems, since you choose a supernatural type, subtype, and faction?As far as your experiences with point buy, well, I could point to my own experiences in such systems and how everyone in the games I've played has tended to make a character with one specialty and then spread the rest of their points so that they have a little bit of training in a lot of other fields too. It really says more about the people you're gaming with than the system itself. I've had pleasant games in Pathfinder and D&amp;D with pleasant company, but I could never quite ignore the sheer class imbalance in the game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cronocke, post: 6348522, member: 63379"] Monks and fighters in Pathfinder and D&D, every edition except 4th, are useful in basically zero situations, unless the GM bends over backwards to make them valuable. The latter tanks worse than a cleric, and does damage about as well as one. The monk doesn't even have [B]that[/B] going for it. Paladins and barbarians are a slight improvement at best. Rogues have the main advantage of being able to use magic items and having loads of skill points. Half of the classes in the core rulebook are flat out worse than the other half, sometimes to an extreme degree. So, the iconic class-and-level game makes half or more of the classes bad. Now, you may say that it's not a well-designed class system, to which I'd agree, but then what is? Does Legends of the Wulin count, in which your class mostly determines what skill you use to regain chi, and what bits of lore you get for free (though there are factions you can join that do bigger things)? Are World of Darkness games class systems, since you choose a supernatural type, subtype, and faction? As far as your experiences with point buy, well, I could point to my own experiences in such systems and how everyone in the games I've played has tended to make a character with one specialty and then spread the rest of their points so that they have a little bit of training in a lot of other fields too. It really says more about the people you're gaming with than the system itself. I've had pleasant games in Pathfinder and D&D with pleasant company, but I could never quite ignore the sheer class imbalance in the game. [/QUOTE]

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