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<blockquote data-quote="MoogleEmpMog" data-source="post: 3217798" data-attributes="member: 22882">I can see three ECL 14 PCs taking down a gargantuan CR 20 dragon (and no, I'm not talking about Pun-Pun <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ), since I've seen five ECL 13 PCs and an ECL 14 NPC take down a colossal CR 25 Iron Kingdoms dragon (considerably nastier than the conventional kind).Those PCs, however, included a dwarf rifleman/officer who was an expert at party buffing and could do upwards of 200 damage on a crit (with a wide crit range), a dwarf rifleman (who could do even more than the rifleman/officer and at similar ranges), and an elven holy slayer type who could use magic device to activate an archeotech cannon for similar ranged damage, albeit less consistently, a monk with a PrC that allowed him to fly, and a druid.&nbsp; Between the three shooters, they tore the dragon to shreds in a couple of rounds and probably could have handled it without the rest of the party; certainly any one of them would have had at least a slim chance of soloing a CR 20 dragon.A (multiclassed) bard, a (multiclassed! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused&nbsp; &nbsp; :confused:"&nbsp; data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> ) cleric and a straight monk?&nbsp; Do they have *any* source of ranged damage?&nbsp; I suppose the cleric can handle acid resistance and fear resistance, but what offense does he have against a dragon?I'm not seeing much chance for them to beat a CR 14 dragon, much less a CR 20 one.&nbsp; They'd need some truly astonishing tactics, and the dragon would have to behave in a fairly stupid fashion, for it not to be a TPK.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MoogleEmpMog, post: 3217798, member: 22882"] I can see three ECL 14 PCs taking down a gargantuan CR 20 dragon (and no, I'm not talking about Pun-Pun ;) ), since I've seen five ECL 13 PCs and an ECL 14 NPC take down a colossal CR 25 Iron Kingdoms dragon (considerably nastier than the conventional kind). Those PCs, however, included a dwarf rifleman/officer who was an expert at party buffing and could do upwards of 200 damage on a crit (with a wide crit range), a dwarf rifleman (who could do even more than the rifleman/officer and at similar ranges), and an elven holy slayer type who could use magic device to activate an archeotech cannon for similar ranged damage, albeit less consistently, a monk with a PrC that allowed him to fly, and a druid. Between the three shooters, they tore the dragon to shreds in a couple of rounds and probably could have handled it without the rest of the party; certainly any one of them would have had at least a slim chance of soloing a CR 20 dragon. A (multiclassed) bard, a (multiclassed! :confused: ) cleric and a straight monk? Do they have *any* source of ranged damage? I suppose the cleric can handle acid resistance and fear resistance, but what offense does he have against a dragon? I'm not seeing much chance for them to beat a CR [B]14[/B] dragon, much less a CR 20 one. They'd need some truly astonishing tactics, and the dragon would have to behave in a fairly stupid fashion, for it not to be a TPK. [/QUOTE]

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