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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 5983699" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>A bow ranger and two-weapon ranger play fundamentally different despite potentially having all the same class features and powers. </p><p>But a two-weapon ranger and a rogue and an avenger will play fairly similarly. Paladins play similar to fighters, invokers play similar to wizards. </p><p></p><p>All classes have the same base tactics as well. Start a fight, find a way to use your Encounter powers. Focus fire. Defenders defend, controllers control. Save Dailies for harder or boss fights then throw down black cards as soon as possible. </p><p></p><p></p><p>How was the original 4e magic missile different from a ranger shooting a bow? How many powers can be summed up as "deal some damage and daze"? How is a fighter making a close burst 1 attack with his sword different than a wizard doing something identical with martial crossed out and arcane written in and the [W] replaced with a d8? </p><p></p><p>Here's a couple power from somewhere:</p><p></p><p><strong>Daily</strong></p><p><strong>Standard Action </strong></p><p><strong>Close </strong>burst 1</p><p><strong>Target:</strong> Each creature in the burst you can see</p><p><strong>Attack:</strong> Ability vs. Defence</p><p><strong>Hit: </strong>1d10 + Ability modifier damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends)</p><p><strong>Miss: </strong>Half damage.</p><p><strong>Kicker:</strong> If you have the right class option, targets you hit are also knocked prone.</p><p></p><p><strong>Daily</strong></p><p><strong>Standard Action </strong></p><p><strong>Personal</strong></p><p><strong>Effect: </strong>You shift your speed, including through squares occupied by enemies. Until the end of your next turn, you can squeeze without penalties to your attack rolls or speed.</p><p><strong>Targets:</strong> Creatures whose spaces you shift through</p><p><strong>Attack:</strong> Ability vs. Defence</p><p><strong>Hit:</strong> 3d8 + Ability modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square.</p><p><strong>Miss:</strong> You push the target 1 square.</p><p></p><p><strong>Encounter</strong></p><p><strong>Standard Action</strong></p><p><strong>Target:</strong> One creature</p><p><strong>Attack:</strong> Ability vs. Defence</p><p><strong>Hit: </strong>2d8 + Ability modifier damage, and the target treats all squares as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. You and your allies ignore difficult terrain until the end of your next turn.</p><p><strong>Kicker:</strong> If you have the right class option, until the end of your next</p><p>turn, your allies can ignore difficult terrain even if you miss.</p><p></p><p><strong>Encounter</strong></p><p><strong>Standard Action </strong></p><p><strong>Target: </strong>One creature</p><p><strong>Attack:</strong> Ability vs. Defence</p><p><strong>Hit:</strong> 2d10 + Ability modifier damage. If the target leaves the space it currently occupies before the start of your next turn, it takes an extra 1d10 + Ability modifier damage.</p><p></p><p>Quick, which are spells, which are prayers, and which are exploits? </p><p></p><p></p><p>So maybe, just maybe, you're not someone who should be playing a fighter. Is that really so bad?</p><p>Besides, fighters were always worth playing in 3e. They could be great damage dealers and are the kings of damage in Pathfinder. </p><p>The wizard comment is true. They needed a little more love at low levels and a little less crazy at high. But that didn't require changing every other class. And the majority of the game was quite playable. Wizards were only weak/crazy at the very low levels and very high. With the later rarely being reached. Seems silly to change so much over content a small minority is going to experience.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Discussing Essentials at the same time as regular 4e is a dodge. Essentials, while made for new players, was also design to evade much of the criticism that had been levelled at 4e. And it came out two years into the edition, too late to save it as people had already made their mind and customers had been lost. </p><p>Had WotC started with something similar to Essentials and books like those we've seen the past year, we would not be talking about 5e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 5983699, member: 37579"] A bow ranger and two-weapon ranger play fundamentally different despite potentially having all the same class features and powers. But a two-weapon ranger and a rogue and an avenger will play fairly similarly. Paladins play similar to fighters, invokers play similar to wizards. All classes have the same base tactics as well. Start a fight, find a way to use your Encounter powers. Focus fire. Defenders defend, controllers control. Save Dailies for harder or boss fights then throw down black cards as soon as possible. How was the original 4e magic missile different from a ranger shooting a bow? How many powers can be summed up as "deal some damage and daze"? How is a fighter making a close burst 1 attack with his sword different than a wizard doing something identical with martial crossed out and arcane written in and the [W] replaced with a d8? Here's a couple power from somewhere: [B]Daily Standard Action [/B] [B]Close [/B]burst 1 [B]Target:[/B] Each creature in the burst you can see [B]Attack:[/B] Ability vs. Defence [B]Hit: [/B]1d10 + Ability modifier damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends) [B]Miss: [/B]Half damage. [B]Kicker:[/B] If you have the right class option, targets you hit are also knocked prone. [B]Daily Standard Action Personal Effect: [/B]You shift your speed, including through squares occupied by enemies. Until the end of your next turn, you can squeeze without penalties to your attack rolls or speed. [B]Targets:[/B] Creatures whose spaces you shift through [B]Attack:[/B] Ability vs. Defence [B]Hit:[/B] 3d8 + Ability modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square. [B]Miss:[/B] You push the target 1 square. [B]Encounter Standard Action Target:[/B] One creature [B]Attack:[/B] Ability vs. Defence [B]Hit: [/B]2d8 + Ability modifier damage, and the target treats all squares as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. You and your allies ignore difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. [B]Kicker:[/B] If you have the right class option, until the end of your next turn, your allies can ignore difficult terrain even if you miss. [B]Encounter Standard Action Target: [/B]One creature [B]Attack:[/B] Ability vs. Defence [B]Hit:[/B] 2d10 + Ability modifier damage. If the target leaves the space it currently occupies before the start of your next turn, it takes an extra 1d10 + Ability modifier damage. Quick, which are spells, which are prayers, and which are exploits? So maybe, just maybe, you're not someone who should be playing a fighter. Is that really so bad? Besides, fighters were always worth playing in 3e. They could be great damage dealers and are the kings of damage in Pathfinder. The wizard comment is true. They needed a little more love at low levels and a little less crazy at high. But that didn't require changing every other class. And the majority of the game was quite playable. Wizards were only weak/crazy at the very low levels and very high. With the later rarely being reached. Seems silly to change so much over content a small minority is going to experience. Discussing Essentials at the same time as regular 4e is a dodge. Essentials, while made for new players, was also design to evade much of the criticism that had been levelled at 4e. And it came out two years into the edition, too late to save it as people had already made their mind and customers had been lost. Had WotC started with something similar to Essentials and books like those we've seen the past year, we would not be talking about 5e. [/QUOTE]
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