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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5985714" data-attributes="member: 87792">I'm surprised. I actually picked [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s sports as Polo, Water Polo, Lacrosse, and Wheelchair Basketball. Because so much was left out. Just like your examples.  You mean you removed almost all the fiction. Ffs you even removed what sort of defence was being used - I might believe the move-through-enemies power as a rogue thing (I didn't because it used too much brute force, although my initial guess was that it was a Monk daily) but I can't recall a single time a rogue attacks fortitude because that isn't what rogues do. In short you stripped information out and this lead to confusion. Next time don't remove important information and you won't mislead people as much.  No you didn't. You took away details of what it actually does by removing information like the defence being targetted as well as things like damage types. You then disguised information by by your own admission picking random numbers for the weapon powers, providing false information.  It's about as magical as a wizard doing 20 points of damage to a target. By your logic every single ray spell in 3.X is non-magic.  Who says that's all magic has going for it? It's all some simple combat spells have going for them.  And you seem to be trying to say that only magic should be special. Why? Also let's take an actual play example. From memory these are the At Wills of my PCs, stripped of the same information you've stripped them of. Note that I'm still presenting the caricatures you are - but I'm also presenting more than one power as that's more than one datapoint. I've cut two PCs from the list - there is no way to present Thieves Tricks or Full Disciplines that doesn't make them obvious. Seven PCs, four power sources. All PCs I have designed and played. PC 1:[sblock]At WillStandard Action Ranged: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d6 + Ability modifier damage, and if the target misses an attack roll before the start of your next turn they are knocked prone At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d8 + Ability modifier damage, and the target takes -2 to a defence of your choice until the end of your next turn[/sblock] PC 2:[sblock]At WillStandard Action Ranged: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d10 + Ability modifier damageSpecial: This power may be used as a Ranged basic Attack At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d10 + Ability modifier damage, and the target takes -2 to hit until the end of their next turn and you slide them one square.[/sblock] PC 3: (This one's a no-brainer)[sblock]At WillStandard Action Ranged: Target: One squareEffect: Create something in that square. Any enemy entering a square adjacent to the object takes 1d6 + stat modifier damage At WillStandard Action Area Burst 1: Target: Each enemy in burstAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d6 + Ability modifier damage, you slide the enemy one square[/sblock] PC 4: (And just as much a no brainer)[sblock]At WillStandard Action Ranged: Target: One creature in ten squaresEffect: One ally within five squares of you may make a basic attack against that creature At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureEffect: One ally adjacent to you may make a melee basic attack aganst your target. If they hit they gain [your secondary stat mod] as a bonus to damage At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d8 + Ability modifier damageEffect: Your target may make a basic attack against you with combat advantage. If they do one ally may make a basic attack against them with combat advantage.[/sblock] PC 5: (OK, so this one's easy too)[sblock]At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d8 + Ability modifier damage and the target is subject to your Divine Sanction At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d8 + Ability modifier damage and you gain a bonus to your next saveSpecial: This counts as a melee basic attack[/sblock] PC 6: (OK, so this one's easy too)[sblock]At WillStandard Action Melee: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d8 + Ability modifier damage and you slide the target one square At WillStandard Action Close Blast 3: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d8 + Ability modifier damageEffect: All enemies in the zone until the start of your next turn grant combat advantage At WillStandard Action Ranged: Target: One creatureAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d6 + Ability modifier damage and you get to make this attack again if the target does something that would provoke an opportunity attack[/sblock] PC 7: (The role's going to be obvious for this one, the power source simply because it's a well known power)[sblock]At WillStandard Action Ranged: Target: One, two, or three enemiesAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d4 + Ability modifier damage At WillStandard Action Area Burst 1: Ranged: Target: One enemyAttack: Ability vs. DefenceHit: 1d10 + Ability modifier damageSpecial: This counts as a Ranged Basic Attack[/sblock] It's not just one individual power that matters - rays according to you are archery. It's the whole PC built up from the component parts. And you need multiple parts - for instance there is no reason most of the Barbarian powers couldn't be Martial. But raging really isn't martial. And these are all recognisable despite having stripped actually important information from them like what the target defence is.</blockquote>

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