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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 7651899" data-attributes="member: 58416">Some of these changes help, but they still dont fix some of the  underlying problems that would need to be fixed for me to play 4E in  this manner and find it enjoyable.  One of the biggest obstacles is that  PCs interact with the world math differently than monsters do; the  underlying "physics engine" (for a lack of better words) is geared  toward a certain style, and that style is not gritty in the slightest.  I  understand (and applaud) the design decision to make monsters and PCs  be built differently; however, that has nothing to do with what I mean.   What I mean when I say that PCs interact with the world math different  is that the numbers the PCs can -very easily- generate can -very easily-  literally break parts of the game world; by contrast, even some of the  strongest monsters can at times struggle to break through even a  relatively flimsy wall or door.  The changes proposed in the the  OP would certainly make the game harder.  However, I'm not so sure the  game would feel grittier (to me.)  Rougher on the players?  Yes.   Grittier?  Not necessarily, and the two things (more difficult and  grittier) are not necessarily synonymous.  3rd Edition and Pathfinder  are both (in my opinion) rougher on the players than 4th Edition, but I  do not feel they do a particularly good job at feeling gritty (at least  not in the sense I think of the word) either.  Gritty isn't just about a  harsh world; you can actually have a somewhat gritty feeling game  without making the world especially harsh.  For me, a big part of making  a game feel more gritty is making it feel more real, and I believe once  of the biggest steps toward doing that is making the PCs feel as though  they are part of the world rather than above it.  Note that that does  not mean they are necessarily average joes, a hero can still be above  average, yet be part of the world rather than be built in such a way  that they are above the concerns of the world, and a lot of creating  that feeling is building a better world.  You can have monsters be built  differently than PCs, but still have they way the two sides of the  spectrum interact with the math the game world is built upon be more  consistent.  So, I'll again say that while I believe many of these  changes help, they still do not address the problems I have with trying  to run this style of game with the 4E engine.    Many of these  ideas are things that will make the game rougher on the players; they  succeed at doing that.  I can in no way deny they do.  Though, with that  being said, I believe it's also worth pointing out that many of the new  limitations imposed are fairly easy to work around.  In particular,  there are a large number of items, powers, and rituals which make safely  resting virtually anywhere pretty easy.  It seems to me that step one gives PCs raw HP totals more similar to their foes, but the PCs still have significantly more firepower than their enemies, so I'm not convinced the end effect is really meaningful; as my personal philosophy to "healing" is to never get hit in the first place rather than spend later actions healing (and is one of the primary reasons I feel the warlord is more useful than the cleric,) I don't see much of an effect.  I see some merit in Step 2; I like adding more HP related conditions, but some of the other changes make some of the parts of 4E which feel meta-gamey seem more so, and I'm not sure yet how -in play- that would weigh against my desire for a grittier (grittier than contemporary D&D anyway) experience.  As I'm also not exactly a fan of 5E's views on how certain things work, I'm cautious about porting some of its philosophy into 4E. In an attempt to not be entirely negative, I will say that I would have to try the changes before having a more solid opinion.  While, from a first glance, they do not appear to address the issues I have with using 4E for a gritty game, it may be that they work out much differently in play than they look.  With that in mind, I'd be open minded to trying a game with the proposed changes.</blockquote>

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