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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Garthanos" data-source="post: 7651920" data-attributes="member: 82504">How challenged players are is highly dependent on various elements but largely a choice 4e has made it less up to random chance than previous editions of D&D but obviously still influence by it far more than some other rpgs, That choice is neither just dm or the players some can be attributed to tactical skills but definitely not all (even paying attention to focus fire some may not find heroic), an example unrelated to skill = my players are anti-optimization (they want all around competence from a perceptual angle so even though you can bury the dump stat and concentrate on 1, 2 or 3 stats nope not really acceptable to my players).At low level the math is geared so level 1 and 2 adversaries even the non-minons are actually lower level than the pcs... in effect it allows you to have a broader range of adversaries in the starting game... similarly at the highest levels prior to the so called math patch feats (which we refuse to use)It occured to me some of your statements ring in on the man vs machine angle.In heroic fantasy your heros have "person adversaries" that can be villianized so a trap becomes a mere tool of attrition which may bring the competition between the hero and the living enemy in to a tighter focus in a sense it looses its bite becomes a lesser thing de-emphasided, (an active adversary needs to be interfering with your attempts to break that Gondola)....I think this means you need red-shirts to die for the Indiana Jones while he gets to run away from traps he does trigger like rolling boulders.</blockquote>

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