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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8504932" data-attributes="member: 6987520">So, multiclassing and/or bringing back dual-classing or prestige classes wouldn't fix this?Otherwise, D&D is a class-based game, not skill-based. So it does progress in leaps (when you level) instead of gradually (improving desired skills a few at a time, at most).Regardless, from your example it is mostly about skill adaptation and role-playing. With rules for downtime, award, and feats, you can learn new skills and you can role-play your PC in whatever manner is dictated by you.I don't see how dumping skills and most spells is relevant to this. Your point 2 was:While I didn't specify, part of backstory is also about the players making characters and playing in such a fashion as to create "group creation" and "cohesion" between group members. The game is already designed for classes to more easily fill particular roles, while allowing for some overlap, particularly when subclasses are considered.I don't feel we need a "system" for doing all this as much as it should be created organically from player choices.While it is entirely relevant, I don't see what my statement has to do with the analogy you cite.More to the point, I discussed this with a group member whose been part of my games the longest (nearly 25 years now). We played AD&D back in late 90's together for over a decade. The conversation got me thinking about my characters back then in AD&D 1E and I can honestly say this:I played several PCs of the same classes (such as over a dozen fighters, etc.) and NEVER, NOT ONCE, did I feel because they were the same class and were locked into the identical paths (more so than in 5e!) that they lacked character growth!That growth came from the choices I made in the game about who my character was and how they would react, etc. Every fighter progressed exactly the same. Every thief used the same table for thieving skills, every PC got exactly the same thing as every other PC of the same class. It wasn't about what what happened when they leveled because you rarely made any choices then. In fact, the only choice you really made (outside of possibly choosing spells) was what weapon proficiency and non-weapon proficiency you might learn.Your only other choices revolved around in game aspects: equipment, weapons, armor, magic items you selected when offered, etc.What really led to character growth was how you played your character more so than what they got when they leveled.So, while I understand your point and logic, I think the flaw isn't so much in the game system as how you choose to interact with the game. Having options can make for more interesting characters, of course, but IMO too many players in 5E focus on their character sheet (what features they have) instead of what they do in the adventure.But if you want to focus on player choices for their characters as they are created and later gain levels, you can create and play out characters of the same class/subclass which are very different. Different races and traits, different backgrounds, different weapon focus, different fighting styles, different skills, different feats, different roles (melee vs. ranged vs. tank, etc.), all blend to create different experiences in playing.Here are examples using just options in the Player's Handbook. Underlined content is repeated.[spoiler="Fighter 10 (Champion) #1"]Race: Halfling (Lightfoot); Lucky, Brave, Nimble, StealthySize: SmallSpeed: 25 feetAbility Scores: STR 10, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 16, CHA 9Background: Criminal/ Highway Robber (Proficiencies: Deception, Stealth, Gaming Set, Thieves' Tools)Class: Fighter 10  (Champion)Proficiencies: All weapons, armors, and shields; Acrobatics, PerceptionFeatures: Second Wind, Action Surge, Fighting Style (Archer), Improved Critical, Extra Attack, Remarkable Athlete, Indomitable, Fighting Style (Defense)ASI/Feats: Sharpshooter (4th), DEX +2 (6th), Observant (8th, WIS +1)Key Gear: Studded Leather and ShortbowStory/ Motivation: This halfling led a hard life and had to make his way the best he could, often doing things he regretted just to survive. Convinced by the half-orc to try to make something more of himself, he choose a life of adventure, and travels with him.Role: He functions in the group as a scout and ranged support in combat. He can serve as back-up to a rogue or ranger, or if not present, as the primary. His racial traits help him excel in this role. He considers multiclassing to Rogue to gain expertise and make him better in his role as scout.[/spoiler][spoiler="Fighter 10 (Champion) #2"]Race: Half-Orc; Darkvision, Menacing, Relentless Endurance, Savage AttacksSize: MediumSpeed: 30 feetAbility Scores: STR 18, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 13Background: Outlander/ Bounty Hunter (Proficiencies: Athletics, Survival, Musical Instrument, Dwarven)Class: Fighter 10  (Champion)Proficiencies: All weapons, armors, and shields; Animal Handling, InsightFeatures: Second Wind, Action Surge, Fighting Style (Dueling), Improved Critical, Extra Attack, Remarkable Athlete, Indomitable, Fighting Style (Protection)ASI/Feats: Heavy Armor Master (4th), STR+2 (6th), Inspiring Leader (8th)Key Gear: Plate, shield, and WarhammerStory/ Motivation: This half-orc has always been a hunter, bringing those to justice who need it and trying to lead others by example. Seeing the halfling struggling and following a road to worse crimes, he is helping the halfling follow a better path.Role: He functions as a leader, a front-line defender and tank. He might one day multiclass to Paladin, but has not found an oath to follow yet.[/spoiler][spoiler="Comparison"]Despite both these PCs being Fighter 10 Champions, they feel and play VERY different IMO.Complete differences include:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Race and racial traits (including Size and Speed)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Ability Scores</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Backgrounds</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Skills</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Fighting Styles</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Feat selection</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Armor, shield, and weapon selection</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Story / Motivation (and likely Alignment & Personality based on motivation/background)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Role in the party</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Multiclassing option (one lacks the DEX to be a Rogue, the other lacks the STR and CHA to be a Paladin)</li> </ol>Partial differences are:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Languages (they share Common, but all other languages are distinct)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Although proficient in all weapons and armor, their choices make them distinct: light armor and ranged, heavy armor and melee.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Remarkable Athlete is shared, but because of skill choices, each will benefit from it in different ways.</li> </ol>Complete similarities are:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Class</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Level</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Subclass</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Fighter features (Second Wind, Action Surge, Extra Attack, Indomitable), shared by all fighters regardless of subclass</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Champion features (Improved Critical)</li> </ol>If two players in your group played these PCs, I am sure the feel of each would be completely different to them.[/spoiler]While these "snap-shots" are just one moment at level 10, the paths the two PCs would take to get to level 10 are different and involve making a lot of choices (both feature-wise and in game play) along the way. And while using feats and multiclassing (which I didn't do, but offered as possible choice which could happen) are optional, most games play with feats and over half use multiclassing IME and according to a poll I did over a year ago.You might seem them as being too similar for your tastes, but I think 5E offers a lot to make each character feel and play different through their career as an adventure, even discounting the choices a player makes in game to make the experience unique.So, I must whole-heartedly disagree with this statement:I do understand if you only focus on class and subclass, it is harder, but still not as arduous a task as you feel it is. But that is just my opinion. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤷‍♂️" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f937-2642.png" title="Man shrugging    :man_shrugging:" data-shortname=":man_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /></blockquote>

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