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Message: <blockquote data-quote="payn" data-source="post: 9847509" data-attributes="member: 90374">I went with an 8 if 5E is a 6. My goto fantasy is still PF1, but I also stand by Traveller, which is a deal simpler. I can appreciate streamlined and simpler games if they are efficient at what they set out to do. Oftentimes, they lack depth, which makes the experience too thin. However, some complex games lose sight of the forest for the trees.  I do play a lot of Battletech these days. I think its a good example of complexity done right and wrong. Its exciting to factor in my movement and offensive capability against my opponent's defense and surrounding terrain. Its at least a factor of 5 and each one has its own set of rules. Where things start to go wrong in complexity is making something simple into a nightmare. Like infantry repelling from a helicopter shouldnt take multiple rolls, charts to determine success and failure, and 4-5 conditions based on the degree of the results. Its a cool cinematic element thats bogged down in simulation. Folks often put narrative and rule of cool over simulation, but I dont think they need to be at odds. I think you use the right tool for the right job and any game can contain both. Complexity is usually the factor of it being a good experience or not. YMMV.</blockquote>