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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 6281447" data-attributes="member: 58197">Not in this packet (that I can find), but we've seen such things in previous packets. And there are other cases where the distinction would come up. For example, the rogue's Reliable Talent feature says, &quot;When you make an ability check and add your proficiency bonus to that check, treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.&quot;By the rules, this feature does not apply to saving throws, and I think it's safe to say that's intentional. It's supposed to ensure your effectiveness as a skill monkey, not make you immune to fireballs*. But that depends on &quot;saving throw&quot; not falling into the category of &quot;ability check.&quot; If a save is a type of check, then Reliable Talent works on saves and needs to be rewritten.It's different because they don't say &quot;A saving throw is an ability check.&quot; Instead they write out all the rules again, from scratch: Roll a d20, add your ability modifier, proficiency if applicable, compare to DC. It's not a check, in the same way that an attack roll with a greatsword is not a Strength check, even though the mechanics are identical.Worth noting, this is almost entirely an issue with the name. We don't refer to an attack with a greatsword as a &quot;Strength attack,&quot; and so I'm not too worried about players distinguishing between &quot;attack roll&quot; and &quot;Strength check.&quot; Likewise, if we used the same mechanics as now but applied the 3E saving throw names, I wouldn't be concerned. It's not hard to keep &quot;Dexterity check&quot; and &quot;Reflex save&quot; straight. (Of course, we'd need new names for the other three saves. Might, Cunning, Spirit?)But &quot;Dexterity check&quot; and &quot;Dexterity save&quot; are going to cause endless confusion. I already spend too much time straightening out the casual players at my table on rules minutiae; I don't need any more.[SIZE=-2]*Assuming your Dexterity is maxed out. An 11th-level rogue with Dexterity 20 has +5 (Dex) +4 (proficiency) = +9 on Dexterity saves, so would never roll less than 19. A 20th-level wizard with Intelligence 20 and an implement has a spell save DC of 8 + 5 (Int) + 6 (proficiency) = 19. Since the rogue also has Uncanny Dodge, the result is total immunity to damage from any spell that deals half damage on a Dex save.[/SIZE]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 6281447, member: 58197"] Not in this packet (that I can find), but we've seen such things in previous packets. And there are other cases where the distinction would come up. For example, the rogue's Reliable Talent feature says, "When you make an ability check and add your proficiency bonus to that check, treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10." By the rules, this feature does not apply to saving throws, and I think it's safe to say that's intentional. It's supposed to ensure your effectiveness as a skill monkey, not make you immune to [I]fireballs*[/I]. But that depends on "saving throw" not falling into the category of "ability check." If a save is a type of check, then Reliable Talent works on saves and needs to be rewritten. It's different because they don't say "A saving throw is an ability check." Instead they write out all the rules again, from scratch: Roll a d20, add your ability modifier, proficiency if applicable, compare to DC. It's not a check, in the same way that an attack roll with a greatsword is not a Strength check, even though the mechanics are identical. Worth noting, this is almost entirely an issue with the name. We don't refer to an attack with a greatsword as a "Strength attack," and so I'm not too worried about players distinguishing between "attack roll" and "Strength check." Likewise, if we used the same mechanics as now but applied the 3E saving throw names, I wouldn't be concerned. It's not hard to keep "Dexterity check" and "Reflex save" straight. (Of course, we'd need new names for the other three saves. Might, Cunning, Spirit?) But "Dexterity check" and "Dexterity save" are going to cause endless confusion. I already spend too much time straightening out the casual players at my table on rules minutiae; I don't need any more. [SIZE=-2]*Assuming your Dexterity is maxed out. An 11th-level rogue with Dexterity 20 has +5 (Dex) +4 (proficiency) = +9 on Dexterity saves, so would never roll less than 19. A 20th-level wizard with Intelligence 20 and an implement has a spell save DC of 8 + 5 (Int) + 6 (proficiency) = 19. Since the rogue also has Uncanny Dodge, the result is total immunity to damage from any spell that deals half damage on a Dex save.[/SIZE] [/QUOTE]

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