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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AllisterH" data-source="post: 5027760" data-attributes="member: 51325">re: Complexity in powers vs spells. At MAXIMUM, the most a character KNOWS is 17 powers. You're honestly comparing this as even CLOSE to what a spellcaster would know? A 3rd level cleric ALREADY exceeds this in pre 3e. A 10th level wizard has that many slots by this state to say nothing of how many spells he actually knows. Personally, this latter part of the thread seems to be more along the lines of "martial classes don't deserve nice things" since none of the detractors of the 3e/4e "complexity" seem to have a problem with the SPELLCASTERS. Why is it that imagination can't suffice for the spellcasters but it should for the non-spellcasters?  re: DM complexity. There are two big issues I can see. 1. Trying to have a system that "encourages" monsters and NPCs to be built along the lines of the PC. Great for those that want the world to look good on paper, but in practise, really, not really needed. 1e/2e and 4e were very smart in this as it so cuts down prep time. 2. Needing to refer to other books while in play. This actually applies somewhat to 1e/2e as well as 3e. Technically, you could use monsters that didn't use spells or spell-like abilities and this was quite possible in the low level (E6-E8) range but even in 1e/2e, once you hit around level 9, most creatures seemed to require having the PHB open as well.</blockquote>