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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 5874457" data-attributes="member: 5038">Among the people with whom I play, they don't char Op/Min Max (well, there is one player. However, he does it to test the DM and see if they will set limits. If the GM sets limits, he will respect those limits).   Concepts and characters are designed by talking them over with the DM to make sure they fit the campaign the DM is running. The classes, UA style class variants, feats, Cityscape wilderness/urban skill swaps, skills points are assigned to build the character discussed to reflect culture, training, etc. and create the character envisioned not get the most l33T character.Char ops/min maxing is a player issue (in the wrong groups).   I blame a specific subset of players and their DMs that refuse to keep them in line if char ops/min maxing is not what the DM wants to run.  Blame the DMs that you have had. The DMG, specifically, tells them  that they, the DMs, are in charge of how the game is played at their table, the rules used and how they are used.  It also tells them that they will need to make adjustments based on their players and characters at the table. Or one could not play with the optimizers or DMs that don't tell them, "No".As a DM, I don't want the designers "siloing" or limiting the concepts, because someone might char op/min-max and abuse the system. I consider it my responsibility as a DM to decide what is  appropriate or inappropriate for my campaign.</blockquote>

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