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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5492098" data-attributes="member: 54877">Nothing in inherently absurb about the jumping example. But I guess I'm making two distinctions: 1. There aren't that many people saying killer cats are acceptable but killer kobolds are not. There are plenty of people exercised about the cats but fine with the kobolds. And there are plenty of people exercised about the kobolds, and the cats are just a special extreme case of the same annoyance. However, people get assumed into camps they are not in based on passing comments.  2. Jumping to CAGI or those other 4E examples is not a cats to kobolds parallel. If people were mad because you could (made up example) jump 30 feet in the dungeon but fine with jumping 45 feet outside, that would be parallel. It is hard to make parallels between "I jumped a really long ways on a somewhat implausible path" versus "The net result of what I did got some people near me to get a little closer than was healthy for them." The only way you could determine if such a comparison was out of whack would be to know all the relevant assumption at the table where it happened. If the assumptions are (as when I play) that 5' is a rather nebulous concept strictly useful for making the grid work, and not necessarily tied to distance in the game world, then you get rather a lot of slack. 30 foot jumps become a lot more plausible when you think of a "square" as somewhere between 2.5 and 7.5 feet, on the edges. So a jump of 6 squares is 20 feet for the four middle squares and somewhere between 5 and 15 feet for the other two. You barely missed and two other athletic characters made it to the lip? I guess it was a foot longer than you thought it was. Naturally, I could not care less about the 1-2-1-2 or 1-1-1-1 diagonal movement issue. (And no, I don't care about repeated actions by different characters, either. I throw away consistency concerns there as "unnecessary handling issues.") With CAGI, among other "sucker them in" rationales that I'm not going to skip here, I'm also conscious that it is an artificial construct that people move in turns, and that exact placement is rather vague. So it is not hard to see how people "near" the fighter move such that the fighter gets a shot at all of them. I find it far more implausible that 6 goblins might all get a shot at said fighter, and not only not hinder each other but actually get a bonus for flanking. YMMV. It is true that in my case the "nebulous distance" part feeds into both the jumping and the CAGI rationales, but there are enough other factors in the latter such that another person could reasonably accept or reject either rationale for their table.  A hierarchy of pings on the WTF meter is, by definition, somewhat arbitrary once you leave the table where it takes place, except for things that are really tight, such at the killer cat and kobold bit.  Bah, that was an incredibly long-winded way to say, "they accept one and not the other because their assumptions of what is plausible are different than yours." I hope it was worth it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Edit: The biggest WTF ping I have ever gotten from my current group was in a 3E game, and had nothing to do with mechanics. They were in a kingdom where they were told that every pledged citizen of the realm was scrupulously loyal to the royal family. Even the crooks. They couldn't find an exception. The two real-life lawyer/law enforcement ladies were giving me that, "what were you smoking last night?" look. It was a key plot point that this loyalty was divinely enforced, but it took awhile for them to dig that out. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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