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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5493460" data-attributes="member: 2011">Have you and your friends actually tried to play 4E before making this claim?Not every game system is for every person.Something to consider, however.I've been playing D&D on a nearly weekly basis for over 32 years. I've delved into a few other game systems for short periods of time and even helped write a supplement book for D&D 3E.And like your group, I was a grognard at first when it came to the 4E changes from 3.5. I liked my 3.5.There are still some minor things about 4E that I do not like.But.I am currently in a once per week home 4E game that my teenage daughter also plays in. She is more motivated about playing 4E than any other aspect of her life (which is actually very full of several other extremely successful and more important activities). Her face lights up and her voice actually rises to the point that I have to ask her to keep it down multiple times each gaming session (which if you knew my daughter, you would probably be surprised at that uncharacteristic behavior).I am DMing two PBP 4E games and a player in two PBP 4E games here on ENWorld.I went back to play PathFinder Ravenloft last summer for a few months. Although the game was fun, it wasn't any more fun than any of our 4E games. It wasn't significantly less fun either. It was fun.I've found that people who get too wrapped around the axle when it comes to the rules of a game aren't focusing on the reason to play a game. There will always be features of rulesets that a given person likes and dislikes.Just like there are features of cars that a given person likes and dislikes.But, unless one drives the car for a while, sitting at the showroom and bitching about its features might be fun, but its nowhere near the fun of driving the car.Your friends can dissect the 4E ruleset and not like many of its features. Or, they could actually sit down and drive the car. Up to them.But there are two features of the 4E game system that are vastly superior to the 3.5 rules, regardless of which other game features that were taken out.1) There is a limit to the number of abilities each PC possesses. The spell casters are not so complex with so many spells that nobody else at the table can play your PC if you are on vacation. The game does not come to a grinding halt as often as a player is glancing through his list of 10 or 20 or 40 spells, trying to come up with a solution to the problem of the moment.2) The DM can prepare his game in a small fraction of the time of 3.5. The players in your game might not consider the amount of work a DM puts into his game, but they should. It's a bit self centered for players to just show up and chug down Cokes and not appreciate the work that a DM does out of game. So you should ask these friends of yours what is more important: sticking to their guns over some minor rules issues, or making life easier for everyone at the table in order to have an enjoyable game together?If they try it and don't like it, fine. Not every game system is for every person.But if they don't actually try it, then it's probably a waste of your time to even post here. You're not going to convince them to give it a try by talking with us. You'll only do it by talking to them.</blockquote>

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