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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5510021" data-attributes="member: 2011">I guess I miss your point without a more concrete example.The DM is introducing the ebbs and flows of what is happening, fine.But, the only way that players (typically) have to respond to those ebbs and flows are by rolling yet another typically high chance to succeed skill check. An occasional power might work, but for the most part, it's the player describing yet another way to use Athletics or Arcana or Thievery and yet again rolling the dice. The high chance of success means that although there was a failure a moment ago, that has very little real bearing on the next die roll (except maybe for a +2/-2 that the DM introduces).In combat, the ebb and flow is handled via a wider variety of methods, some of which are not dice rolling. A PC falls unconscious. The Leader can heal that PC. A PC can move over and give that unconscious PC a healing potion. A PC can stand in front of the unconscious body giving it a cover bonus from ranged attacks. A player can nova to protect the fallen PC, using up an Action Point and/or one or more Dailies. This level of &quot;the PCs do something constructive without rolling dice for success&quot; or &quot;the PCs use up limited resources to turn the tide of the challenge&quot; appears to be missing from the skill challenge system.The skill challenge system appears to focus so much on dice rolling and on having high chances to succeed on the checks, otherwise the mechanics fall apart (especially for complex challenges). &quot;Ok, nobody roll a 4 or less and we've got this&quot; seems inherently lame compared to &quot;Fred and Barney, hold off the BBEG for just one more round and we can finish off his lackeys&quot;. Granted, I realize that most people don't say the former quote here, but that's the feel or perception of how skill challenges work.The combat system has &quot;go to the well&quot; and tactical options for the players that the skill challenge system is lacking. Ways for the players to succeed without it being &quot;pick one of two applicable skills; roleplay something cool or witty, or try to rack your brain to think up yet another different way to use Arcana in this situation; roll dice&quot;.As for advantages, without having read them yet, they seem like a minor Deus Ex Machina to me. The players do not extricate themselves from a situation, the DM does.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5510021, member: 2011"] I guess I miss your point without a more concrete example. The DM is introducing the ebbs and flows of what is happening, fine. But, the only way that players (typically) have to respond to those ebbs and flows are by rolling yet another typically high chance to succeed skill check. An occasional power might work, but for the most part, it's the player describing yet another way to use Athletics or Arcana or Thievery and yet again rolling the dice. The high chance of success means that although there was a failure a moment ago, that has very little real bearing on the next die roll (except maybe for a +2/-2 that the DM introduces). In combat, the ebb and flow is handled via a wider variety of methods, some of which are not dice rolling. A PC falls unconscious. The Leader can heal that PC. A PC can move over and give that unconscious PC a healing potion. A PC can stand in front of the unconscious body giving it a cover bonus from ranged attacks. A player can nova to protect the fallen PC, using up an Action Point and/or one or more Dailies. This level of "the PCs do something constructive without rolling dice for success" or "the PCs use up limited resources to turn the tide of the challenge" appears to be missing from the skill challenge system. The skill challenge system appears to focus so much on dice rolling and on having high chances to succeed on the checks, otherwise the mechanics fall apart (especially for complex challenges). "Ok, nobody roll a 4 or less and we've got this" seems inherently lame compared to "Fred and Barney, hold off the BBEG for just one more round and we can finish off his lackeys". Granted, I realize that most people don't say the former quote here, but that's the feel or perception of how skill challenges work. The combat system has "go to the well" and tactical options for the players that the skill challenge system is lacking. Ways for the players to succeed without it being "pick one of two applicable skills; roleplay something cool or witty, or try to rack your brain to think up yet another different way to use Arcana in this situation; roll dice". As for advantages, without having read them yet, they seem like a minor Deus Ex Machina to me. The players do not extricate themselves from a situation, the DM does. [/QUOTE]

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