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<blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5510681" data-attributes="member: 78116">Wizards are not the only type of caster, for example your first level Druid not only outfights any martial character they can also cast spells. Same with the Cleric - who just outright does everything the fighter can do while casting spells. These aspects only get worse as spellcasters level up. There is also no &quot;Reasonable balance&quot; because low level wizards are essentially useless up until mid levels - by the time they aren't useless the fighter is basically confined to the back of the party with a soup ladle and a colander hat. That by definition is not &quot;balance&quot; whatsoever.I have and it doesn't fix a thing. It pretends to and gives a really good attempt at pretending like it did, but it ultimately doesn't.While I haven't DM'ed pathfinder, what I have played indicates that anyone who knows how to build spellcasters can still break the system utterly in half. They didn't succeed at all - but made a notable attempt at pretending to actually do so. Part of why I never took more of an interest in Pathfinder, because they never actually fixed the aspects of 3.5 that were the significant problems. One of those to me was the fact casters are still far superior to martial characters (whom with higher levels rapidly become increasingly useless) and lo and behold, casters still are in Pathfinder. Edit: Tony: I am aware of how spellcasting worked in 3rd edition. I started playing and then basically became a near permanent DM since 2nd edition. The fact is &quot;Near useless at level 1&quot; and &quot;Overpowered after X level&quot; is not balance. Nor does it fit any actual working definition of the term <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Edit2: Also I am aware of the high level 3.x campaign magic user &quot;DM wins initiative, party dies&quot; vs. &quot;They win initiative, everything dies&quot; type of concept for making the game challenging. Glad those days are long gone.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Aegeri, post: 5510681, member: 78116"] Wizards are not the only type of caster, for example your first level Druid not only outfights any martial character they can also cast spells. Same with the Cleric - who just outright does everything the fighter can do while casting spells. These aspects only get worse as spellcasters level up. There is also no "Reasonable balance" because low level wizards are essentially useless up until mid levels - by the time they aren't useless the fighter is basically confined to the back of the party with a soup ladle and a colander hat. That by definition is not "balance" whatsoever. I have and it doesn't fix a thing. It pretends to and gives a really good attempt at pretending like it did, but it ultimately doesn't. While I haven't DM'ed pathfinder, what I have played indicates that anyone who knows how to build spellcasters can still break the system utterly in half. They didn't succeed at all - but made a notable attempt at pretending to actually do so. Part of why I never took more of an interest in Pathfinder, because they never actually [I]fixed[/I] the aspects of 3.5 that were the significant problems. One of those to me was the fact casters are still far superior to martial characters (whom with higher levels rapidly become increasingly useless) and lo and behold, casters still are in Pathfinder. Edit: Tony: I am aware of how spellcasting worked in 3rd edition. I started playing and then basically became a near permanent DM since 2nd edition. The fact is "Near useless at level 1" and "Overpowered after X level" is not balance. Nor does it fit any actual working definition of the term :p Edit2: Also I am aware of the high level 3.x campaign magic user "DM wins initiative, party dies" vs. "They win initiative, everything dies" type of concept for making the game challenging. Glad those days are long gone. [/QUOTE]

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