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<blockquote data-quote="Lacyon" data-source="post: 4615097" data-attributes="member: 63046">The math still has an impact, though - in Majoru's example, striking for nonlethal damage is still more likely to succeed than most of the other options without the feat, and is again somewhat likely to end the fight in one stroke whereas the others do not.&nbsp;I mean, you can come up with plenty of scenarios where the options work well, but the chance that getting hit by an AoO will completely disrupt what you're doing and deal damage and even if that misses, failure on the maneuver results in the opponent counter-maneuvering for free make it so that situations where it's actually a functional option often feel either forced or contrived; i.e., we're in a scenario where only disarming the guy will stop him because his weapon is too badass for us to handle, or we're in a fight with tiny creatures with awesome AC/HP so grappling them actually makes sense. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it's there.&nbsp;This fades somewhat if characters start taking the feat(s), but can lead back to the original issue of spamming because the character got so much of a boost from that feat (as much as removal of AoO, +4 bonus on opposed check, removal of counter-maneuver option) that the maneuver starts to become the default option, especially if he's got any other bonuses (such as from flails, magic item properties, additional feats, etc).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lacyon, post: 4615097, member: 63046"] The math still has an impact, though - in Majoru's example, striking for nonlethal damage is still more likely to succeed than most of the other options without the feat, and is again somewhat likely to end the fight in one stroke whereas the others do not. I mean, you can come up with plenty of scenarios where the options work well, but the chance that getting hit by an AoO will completely disrupt what you're doing and deal damage and even if that misses, failure on the maneuver results in the opponent counter-maneuvering for free make it so that situations where it's actually a functional option often feel either forced or contrived; i.e., we're in a scenario where only disarming the guy will stop him because his weapon is too badass for us to handle, or we're in a fight with tiny creatures with awesome AC/HP so grappling them actually makes sense. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it's there. This fades somewhat if characters start taking the feat(s), but can lead back to the original issue of spamming because the character got [I]so much[/I] of a boost from that feat (as much as removal of AoO, +4 bonus on opposed check, removal of counter-maneuver option) that the maneuver starts to become the default option, especially if he's got any other bonuses (such as from flails, magic item properties, additional feats, etc). [/QUOTE]

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