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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4621511" data-attributes="member: 35909">Please define &quot;fun.&quot; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />I admit, I alo find UFC boring.&nbsp;&nbsp; However, Brazilian Jui-Jitsu matches (and Judo when it enters the ground fighting phase) can often be rather interesting to watch, like human chess.&nbsp; I'm not sure why there's a difference in (at least my) perception of UFC grappling and when it's done in those martial arts, but it's there.IME, that's the default kind of combat the players are inclined to go for, and the most fun combats are when environment, traps, and clever tactics prevent either them or the enemies from merely rushing in and hacking.It is hard to do, and 3E was far from perfect.&nbsp; But at least it tried to handle it.&nbsp; Any &quot;realistic&quot; grappling rules will be incredibly messy and complicated...much like grappling itself.&nbsp; I don't know if it's less dramatic to go for arm bars and desperately try to break out of choke holds compared to swinging around a sharp piece of metal, though.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Depends what movies.&nbsp; In a European fencing match?&nbsp; Probably is a fight-ender.&nbsp; Jackie Chan gets disarmed all the time.&nbsp; Granted, he fights unarmed and improvised, but sometimes he also retrieves the lost weapon safely via some cool stunt.&nbsp; It's also often times part of the fight in anime.&nbsp; The whole &quot;lose your gun only to desperately dive after it and get the winning shot off just in the nick of time&quot; scenario is so common, it's probably a trope.Like pushing someone out of harm's way! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Sunder is problematic.&nbsp; Still think it should exist in some form, though.Wait...why can't it just be a basic melee attack for no damage (or maybe unarmed damage w/ no ability modifier -- cue in Monks to be awesome trip-monkeys!)?&nbsp; The benefit is it leaves the foe prone.&nbsp; How crappy is the prone condition in 4E?&nbsp; I know you don't provoke for standing, but how low is the bonus to hit, again?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 4621511, member: 35909"] Please define "fun." :p I admit, I alo find UFC boring. However, Brazilian Jui-Jitsu matches (and Judo when it enters the ground fighting phase) can often be rather interesting to watch, like human chess. I'm not sure why there's a difference in (at least my) perception of UFC grappling and when it's done in those martial arts, but it's there. IME, that's the default kind of combat the players are inclined to go for, and the most fun combats are when environment, traps, and clever tactics prevent either them or the enemies from merely rushing in and hacking. It is hard to do, and 3E was far from perfect. But at least it tried to handle it. Any "realistic" grappling rules will be incredibly messy and complicated...much like grappling itself. I don't know if it's less dramatic to go for arm bars and desperately try to break out of choke holds compared to swinging around a sharp piece of metal, though. :) Depends what movies. In a European fencing match? Probably is a fight-ender. Jackie Chan gets disarmed all the time. Granted, he fights unarmed and improvised, but sometimes he also retrieves the lost weapon safely via some cool stunt. It's also often times part of the fight in anime. The whole "lose your gun only to desperately dive after it and get the winning shot off just in the nick of time" scenario is so common, it's probably a trope. Like pushing someone out of harm's way! :) Sunder is problematic. Still think it should exist in some form, though. Wait...why can't it just be a basic melee attack for no damage (or maybe unarmed damage w/ no ability modifier -- cue in Monks to be awesome trip-monkeys!)? The benefit is it leaves the foe prone. How crappy is the prone condition in 4E? I know you don't provoke for standing, but how low is the bonus to hit, again? [/QUOTE]

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