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How Did Your Lair Assault 2 Go? (spoilers)
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<blockquote data-quote="Zuche" data-source="post: 5758787" data-attributes="member: 6682151"><p>Karin'sDad, WotC is not at fault for how your DM mishandled the tentacles. All the description said on the subject of forced movement is that they could not be moved away from the water. Nothing was said about them being immune to other effects either, save for blindness. That shouldn't require any further explanation. We don't assume that a creature is immune to being dazed just because it's described as never granting combat advantage.</p><p></p><p>As for blindsight, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the tentacles needed to make Perception checks to detect creatures or discern friend from foe. I've got the rules open and they only state that the creature sees clearly within the listed range, regardless of invisibility or concealment. Tremorsense would be able to detect people moving around in the hull, its main advantage over blindsight, but it's blind against flying creatures. In a campaign scenario, I might go with tremorsense here, but prefer blindsight for the one shot, where I'd like to see people try a diverse array of tactics.</p><p></p><p>Note that I never referred to players wetting their pants. I specifically mentioned player <em>characters</em>. It's no good to have a group of players experienced enough to know the best mechanical ways to fulfill their roles if they don't realize how little that matters to their characters. As written, this challenge rewards the immersion folks no less than any other group of participants. It might even be kinder to them this time around, if the DM puts any life into their enemies.</p><p></p><p>I don't claim characters should be run at suboptimal efficiency. While you, the player, object to how watery death is handled here, your characters are unaware of any rules that might "balance" such things...and all too aware of what happens to nearly everyone that falls into the clutches of a sea monster. They wouldn't have reached the standard to which you designed them if they weren't able to acknowledge such risks. They know life can be unfair, even when it is fair to their players. Sure, in a campaign, such sudden ends can be very disruptive to an ongoing plot. We can tweak the factory settings as we see necessary, but the hazard rating should not be such that the players can only advance --or survive-- with the very best tactics. </p><p></p><p>In your final session, however, or an independent one-shot, you don't need the same controls. There's no reason to avoid including dangers your characters cannot survive, so long as there are ways to avoid them. </p><p></p><p>I prefer the kraken to your energy draining example because the likes of a Sinbad or Ulysses or even Robinson Crusoe could work out mundane ways to improve their odds of avoiding certain death in the former case. The best options aren't found in the rule book, let alone the power or feat lists. Your use of the hold demonstrates the point, though I question the wisdom of putting all eggs in one basket.</p><p></p><p>The best mechanism for creating challenge is the cooperation of your players, based on the understanding that you're all striving for fun. I'm confident that Talon of Umberlee has been designed with that goal in mind. The enemies have personality, and you've my sympathies if your DM didn't get that across. That's why the baron would be willing to cut and run if you put up enough of a fight. </p><p></p><p>As for the charge that my enthusiasm for the project makes me a zombie, please refer back to my view on how much self-determination the DM should have in this program.</p><p></p><p>I look forward to what players have planned for future sessions. One is obsessed with starting the challenge by stealing the captain's horn. Two others have separate plans for bringing down the house, neither of them covered by the book. They still haven't figured out how to achieve some of the goals from the second encounter, but they're more than happy to test the ideas they've got for the first for now. Maybe they'll even grab the gold this time, sparing the rogue the ribbing he got when he ordered them to forget it:</p><p></p><p>"What kind of a rogue are you?"</p><p>"A live one!"</p><p></p><p>Ah, well, plenty of time to see what they'll try over the next half dozen attempts as they pursue the secret awards. (One down, three to go.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zuche, post: 5758787, member: 6682151"] Karin'sDad, WotC is not at fault for how your DM mishandled the tentacles. All the description said on the subject of forced movement is that they could not be moved away from the water. Nothing was said about them being immune to other effects either, save for blindness. That shouldn't require any further explanation. We don't assume that a creature is immune to being dazed just because it's described as never granting combat advantage. As for blindsight, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the tentacles needed to make Perception checks to detect creatures or discern friend from foe. I've got the rules open and they only state that the creature sees clearly within the listed range, regardless of invisibility or concealment. Tremorsense would be able to detect people moving around in the hull, its main advantage over blindsight, but it's blind against flying creatures. In a campaign scenario, I might go with tremorsense here, but prefer blindsight for the one shot, where I'd like to see people try a diverse array of tactics. Note that I never referred to players wetting their pants. I specifically mentioned player [i]characters[/i]. It's no good to have a group of players experienced enough to know the best mechanical ways to fulfill their roles if they don't realize how little that matters to their characters. As written, this challenge rewards the immersion folks no less than any other group of participants. It might even be kinder to them this time around, if the DM puts any life into their enemies. I don't claim characters should be run at suboptimal efficiency. While you, the player, object to how watery death is handled here, your characters are unaware of any rules that might "balance" such things...and all too aware of what happens to nearly everyone that falls into the clutches of a sea monster. They wouldn't have reached the standard to which you designed them if they weren't able to acknowledge such risks. They know life can be unfair, even when it is fair to their players. Sure, in a campaign, such sudden ends can be very disruptive to an ongoing plot. We can tweak the factory settings as we see necessary, but the hazard rating should not be such that the players can only advance --or survive-- with the very best tactics. In your final session, however, or an independent one-shot, you don't need the same controls. There's no reason to avoid including dangers your characters cannot survive, so long as there are ways to avoid them. I prefer the kraken to your energy draining example because the likes of a Sinbad or Ulysses or even Robinson Crusoe could work out mundane ways to improve their odds of avoiding certain death in the former case. The best options aren't found in the rule book, let alone the power or feat lists. Your use of the hold demonstrates the point, though I question the wisdom of putting all eggs in one basket. The best mechanism for creating challenge is the cooperation of your players, based on the understanding that you're all striving for fun. I'm confident that Talon of Umberlee has been designed with that goal in mind. The enemies have personality, and you've my sympathies if your DM didn't get that across. That's why the baron would be willing to cut and run if you put up enough of a fight. As for the charge that my enthusiasm for the project makes me a zombie, please refer back to my view on how much self-determination the DM should have in this program. I look forward to what players have planned for future sessions. One is obsessed with starting the challenge by stealing the captain's horn. Two others have separate plans for bringing down the house, neither of them covered by the book. They still haven't figured out how to achieve some of the goals from the second encounter, but they're more than happy to test the ideas they've got for the first for now. Maybe they'll even grab the gold this time, sparing the rogue the ribbing he got when he ordered them to forget it: "What kind of a rogue are you?" "A live one!" Ah, well, plenty of time to see what they'll try over the next half dozen attempts as they pursue the secret awards. (One down, three to go.) [/QUOTE]
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