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Message: <blockquote data-quote="D'karr" data-source="post: 5760736" data-attributes="member: 336">I don't recall any of the stuff that we playtested to have even a remote comparison to Ultimate Delve, but that is entirely possible.  I don't even recall WotC advertising them as such or giving us instructions to playtest them as such, but I could be wrong.It's better than having very loose playtesting as was the case with the Ultimate Delves.  BTW, adventures should have things that "break" or stretch the "rules".  If WotC decided to put out a Lair Assault that was populated with all Level + 3 encounters it would be by the rules, but it would be either impossible or not fun.  Just because something follows the "rules" does not make it more, or less challenging, and some of the stuff that they are doing for Lair Assault occupies an entirely different design space that what you'd use at your regular game table.The main difference is that Ultimate Delve had a time limit.  You had 6 encounters to finish in a set real world time limit.  The parameters of that are entirely different than one/two encounters in whatever time you want.The delves were challenging because they were hard, and particularly stressful because you had no time to lollygag.  That is not at all the design space for Lair Assault.If they said, you have 1 hour to complete this encounter I can see the same challenge as in Ultimate Delve.  As it is, season one had 20 rounds as the limit, but you could take 8 hours to do those 20 rounds if you wanted.Time is a hell of a lead to stress.  Lair Assault in the past two seasons have not had that stressor in place.  So they are not even remotely comparable for the "at the table" effect.  When there's a time limit people will make "mistakes" and that was when the Ultimate Delve slammed you, not because you made a mistake but because your mistake usually ended up costing you time.  In Lair Assault with no "metagame" mechanic forcing errors the challenge is not even comparable.Having players try the cheesiest things they can to win is cheesy, and simply a numbers game.  But some people like that.  I don't, so I playtested these things because that was what we were doing, and I don't play them now.  They don't interest me.  But that does not preclude some people from enjoying them, and me nagging that I don't like it is just a way of complaining for the hell of complaining.  If some people like them, then I hope they enjoy them.I don't have a problem with people optimizing their characters mechanically.  Heck, I've done it myself with one, or two of my characters.  I have a problem when everything is looked at only through the prism of CharOp.  Just because someone optimizes does not preclude them from role playing an awesome character.  But when CharOp is the only thing that people focus on, then there is a problem, IMO.  When I played Lair Assault the only reason I did particular things was because of their metagame effect.  It had nothing to do with what I would want my "character" to do.  It had everything to do with what would be mechanically effective.  So if I really wanted to play a gnome illusionist but he was sub-par for the challenge I would make an Eladrin Wizard, because he was optimized for the challenge.  I didn't play what I wanted because it was not the best for the particular challenge, that was one of the metagame reasons that I decided I was not interested in Lair Assault. I want more to my role playing game than a "cheesy" killer adventure designed for "cheesy" characters.  I already know that is the premise to Lair Assault.  And it is purposely designed to be "unfair" within certain limits.  That is not by accident, it is by design.  If you complete it, you have braggin' rights that you completed something that was "unwinnable."  And if you don't survive the first run, then it's meant to be replayed, which is another metagame effect.  So I don't play Lair Assault, not because it's bad, but because it's not to my taste.  However, if some people enjoy it, then more power to them.  I don't have to be the fly in the ointment for their enjoyment, and my complaints though entirely valid are not appropriate for a thread where people should be able to freely discuss what worked, and what didn't work for them during their run.</blockquote>

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