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How do Governments Align?
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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6793130" data-attributes="member: 6681948"><p>I would suggest that his self-interest is not in itself evil. It is his selfishness (from the definition you suggested above, self-interest above all regard for others) which is evil.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Where did we say the businessman was dishonest. He can lay out the facts – if you do not agree to work under my terms, you will have no work. You and your family will starve.</p><p></p><p>If the balance of power falls too far the other way, as it definitely has with certain union situations, the the same failure of the assumption of free market economics – no individual producer or consumer possesses the power to impact the market itself - causes the system to fail because the free market simply is not there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It also designates alignment to entire planes of existence. If we’re discussing attributing D&D alignments to governments or systems of government, I think we have to use the alignment definitions D&D provides us with. You don’t have to agree D&D Good is the appropriate definition of what is good – [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] covers that quite eloquently upthread.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Much though I know I should simply avoid real world politics, history, etc…</p><p></p><p>The US was founded from a lengthy war of independence that commenced with the slogan “No taxation without representation”. It is now the only nation that applies universal taxation on its citizens, wherever they may reside. Those nonresidents have no congressman and no senator. They have no ballot in State governance. They can (after herculean effort, based on a US citizen I know) obtain their ballot for President. In the event the Electoral College splits exactly equally (which I believe would be unprecedented), someone will even count their ballot. I submit the US is, today, the King of taxation without representation, before we get into their taxation of non-citizens of the US (where they are pretty much like every First World nation).</p><p></p><p>The US is also, I believe, the only country still basing their measurement system on the appendages of the monarchs of that country from which they fought so hard for independence from. So it goes…</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just as the employee (employer) in my example must live by the terms laid down by his employer (union), no matter how unfair he thinks them to be, because he is dependent on them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The question simply comes to what rules are set. You are attributing the desire to provide for peoples’ needs to an evil motivation (because I want to control them). This is no different than asserting that all self-interest is inevitably evil. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nor will the business owner whose employees are victims of economic slavery. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Beatings and murders? What happened to those early labour movement organizers? </p><p></p><p>Rapes? Certainly took place within the English sweatshops of the 1800s. </p><p></p><p>Un sanitary living conditions? Shantytowns abounded in the days of Laissez-Faire capitalism.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do those employers have the right to work together to set wages and working conditions? Back to that unequal bargaining power issue again. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Even today, a lot of people work for fixed salaries. Are you suggesting the government impose and enforce an hourly compensation model? What happened to freedom, independence and laissez-faire?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And look forward to a promising career as a beggar, or the joys of starvation. Or maybe your daughter can enter an old profession and help support the family.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On whose land am I doing so?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Workers eventually had unions. Businesses had guilds and cartels long before that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Leaving aside any other issues (like the actual history of the gold standard - US suspending the gold standard in 1914 due to foreign exchange issues, restoring it in late 1914, followed by restricting it by prohibiting exports of gold while it was a participant in WW I, ending that in 1917, after which they stuck with the gold standard until early 1933, when it had also been abandoned by most other currencies, which makes it REALLY hard to credit abandoning the gold standard being the cause of the 1929 stock market crash and the Great Depression which followed), none of this has anything to do with laissez-faire capitalism (much less alignment, D&D or RPG’s in general, which are but a distant memory at this point in the thread).</p><p></p><p>Anyway, moving on…</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I’m not aware of a single historical instance which would show laissez-faire capitalism working.</p><p></p><p>My intro Econ prof many years ago described the history of economics , with each major era ending with “and then X happened, which was impossible, so we needed a new theory”. Adams Smith’s invisible hand didn’t make it past the 19th century, IIRC, although variations obviously continue. Much like pretty much every sloganized philosophy, though, laissez-faire capitalism didn’t really bear much resemblance to the actual theories of Adam Smith, any more than Stalin could claim to be running a nation on Marxist prinicpals.</p><p></p><p>One of the problems with macroeconomic theory is that it is the Macro. Well, it’s good to have 10% unemployment. It’s not so good for the 10% who are unemployed and starve to death. Laisez-faire capitalism says leave them in the street. Good, or Evil? I know what the D&D alignment chart would say, and that’s really as far as I want to take the discussion (way further than I should have…)</p><p></p><p>What actually broke serfdom from the Middle Ages?</p><p></p><p>[spoiler]The Black Plague. It killed off so many labourers that their services had a demand exceeding supply, so for the first time in history they had market power. Good for the ones that survived, anyway.[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>Clearly a fantastic example of laissez-faire capitalism and Benevolent Goodness, right?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 6793130, member: 6681948"] I would suggest that his self-interest is not in itself evil. It is his selfishness (from the definition you suggested above, self-interest above all regard for others) which is evil. Where did we say the businessman was dishonest. He can lay out the facts – if you do not agree to work under my terms, you will have no work. You and your family will starve. If the balance of power falls too far the other way, as it definitely has with certain union situations, the the same failure of the assumption of free market economics – no individual producer or consumer possesses the power to impact the market itself - causes the system to fail because the free market simply is not there. It also designates alignment to entire planes of existence. If we’re discussing attributing D&D alignments to governments or systems of government, I think we have to use the alignment definitions D&D provides us with. You don’t have to agree D&D Good is the appropriate definition of what is good – [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] covers that quite eloquently upthread. Much though I know I should simply avoid real world politics, history, etc… The US was founded from a lengthy war of independence that commenced with the slogan “No taxation without representation”. It is now the only nation that applies universal taxation on its citizens, wherever they may reside. Those nonresidents have no congressman and no senator. They have no ballot in State governance. They can (after herculean effort, based on a US citizen I know) obtain their ballot for President. In the event the Electoral College splits exactly equally (which I believe would be unprecedented), someone will even count their ballot. I submit the US is, today, the King of taxation without representation, before we get into their taxation of non-citizens of the US (where they are pretty much like every First World nation). The US is also, I believe, the only country still basing their measurement system on the appendages of the monarchs of that country from which they fought so hard for independence from. So it goes… Just as the employee (employer) in my example must live by the terms laid down by his employer (union), no matter how unfair he thinks them to be, because he is dependent on them. The question simply comes to what rules are set. You are attributing the desire to provide for peoples’ needs to an evil motivation (because I want to control them). This is no different than asserting that all self-interest is inevitably evil. Nor will the business owner whose employees are victims of economic slavery. Beatings and murders? What happened to those early labour movement organizers? Rapes? Certainly took place within the English sweatshops of the 1800s. Un sanitary living conditions? Shantytowns abounded in the days of Laissez-Faire capitalism. Do those employers have the right to work together to set wages and working conditions? Back to that unequal bargaining power issue again. Even today, a lot of people work for fixed salaries. Are you suggesting the government impose and enforce an hourly compensation model? What happened to freedom, independence and laissez-faire? And look forward to a promising career as a beggar, or the joys of starvation. Or maybe your daughter can enter an old profession and help support the family. On whose land am I doing so? Workers eventually had unions. Businesses had guilds and cartels long before that. Leaving aside any other issues (like the actual history of the gold standard - US suspending the gold standard in 1914 due to foreign exchange issues, restoring it in late 1914, followed by restricting it by prohibiting exports of gold while it was a participant in WW I, ending that in 1917, after which they stuck with the gold standard until early 1933, when it had also been abandoned by most other currencies, which makes it REALLY hard to credit abandoning the gold standard being the cause of the 1929 stock market crash and the Great Depression which followed), none of this has anything to do with laissez-faire capitalism (much less alignment, D&D or RPG’s in general, which are but a distant memory at this point in the thread). Anyway, moving on… I’m not aware of a single historical instance which would show laissez-faire capitalism working. My intro Econ prof many years ago described the history of economics , with each major era ending with “and then X happened, which was impossible, so we needed a new theory”. Adams Smith’s invisible hand didn’t make it past the 19th century, IIRC, although variations obviously continue. Much like pretty much every sloganized philosophy, though, laissez-faire capitalism didn’t really bear much resemblance to the actual theories of Adam Smith, any more than Stalin could claim to be running a nation on Marxist prinicpals. One of the problems with macroeconomic theory is that it is the Macro. Well, it’s good to have 10% unemployment. It’s not so good for the 10% who are unemployed and starve to death. Laisez-faire capitalism says leave them in the street. Good, or Evil? I know what the D&D alignment chart would say, and that’s really as far as I want to take the discussion (way further than I should have…) What actually broke serfdom from the Middle Ages? [spoiler]The Black Plague. It killed off so many labourers that their services had a demand exceeding supply, so for the first time in history they had market power. Good for the ones that survived, anyway.[/spoiler] Clearly a fantastic example of laissez-faire capitalism and Benevolent Goodness, right? [/QUOTE]
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