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Message: <blockquote data-quote="roguish" data-source="post: 9500221" data-attributes="member: 7046843">My thanks, but to be perfectly honest, it doesn't help much? That just picks one of the two books to go with, and doesn't comment on the discrepancy. If that's what they meant, why doesn't the DMG mention Thieves' Tools at all? And what about the narrative solutions? Do you mean I MUST roll Thieves' Tools, always, and can't narrate that I wedge an iron spike under the pressure plate? What about the trip wire that I can cut, according to the DMG, without an ability check? And when I roll, is it a flat DC 15 then? For ALL traps, from nuisance to deadly, even those that scale in damage and detect DC? Lock DCs vary from 10 to 20, but all traps were made equal? I'm sorry folks, does that make a lick of sense to you?Thank you, this is one valid reading, and it does make the rules consistent. However, from a game design perspective, I think it's a spectacular failure, and possibly the result of tragic miscommunication between designers. Imagine a new DM, and a new player who is excited to play a traps specialist. These two have COMPLETELY different information on how disarming traps works. The player, who is not obliged to read the DMG, will naturally think "ah, I'll play a Thief Rogue, so I can get proficiency in Thieves' Tools, and in Sleight of Hand, and Expertise in Sleight of Hand, and I can do it as a bonus action! surely that will make me an expert in the field!". The DM, who is not obliged or expected to homebrew things from scratch on their first time, will naturally think "ah, if I want to put traps in the game, I'll use some of the sample traps in the DMG, good thing they're all detailed!". And the poor Thief, who thought they were making a traps specialist, will discover they didn't, and their chosen skill and expertise don't matter here, and the Thieves' Tools they bought has absolutely nothing to do with ANY of the traps they come across. Improvised tools are not covered in the rules (unless I missed something in the DMG), it's up to the DM. It's a bit confusing because Thieves' Tools is both an item, that you may or may not hold, and a Proficiency that you may or may not have. Here's how tools work, they do make sense:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">every time you use a tool, you need to have the tool (the item) on your person, and you roll an ability check (which in some cases is a skill check)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">if you are proficient in the tool and/or the skill, you add your proficiency bonus</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">if you are proficient in both the tool and the skill, you add your proficiency bonus once and you roll with advantage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">and if you have expertise in the skill, you add your proficiency bonus twice instead of once</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">(you can not take expertise in tools)</li> </ul>The 2024 DMG has only one magical sample trap (Fire-Casting Statue), and it allows for both magical and non-magical means of detecting and disarming it. Detect Magic reveals an aura of evocation magic around the statue. A DC 10 Perception check within 5 ft of the statue detects a glyph. Once the glyph is discovered, a DC 15 Arcana check reveals you can disarm the trap by defacing the glyph with a sharp tool. Separately from that, a DC 15 Perception check "if you examine the section of floor that forms the pressure plate" detects the pressure plate, and then you can wedge an iron spike or similar under the plate to prevent the trap from triggering. No check is mentioned or appears to be required. And Thieves' Tools is neither here nor there.</blockquote>

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