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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 625692" data-attributes="member: 4937">Well, that isn't as unusual of a complaint as you might think.&nbsp; Let me ask you a question, 'Did they all start RPing post 2nd edition?'&nbsp; The reason I ask is I'v e noticed a distinct trend among 2nd edition players to rely far too heavily on brute force, spells, and magic items.&nbsp; A quick reading of 2nd edition Forgotten Realms adventures that they cut thier teeth on provides the answer.There are out there players who look at a set of rules and immediately figure out how to break them, create smack downs, and what not.But for the most part, even those players get really skilled at 'dungeon crawling' by actually doing it.&nbsp; I've had horrible problems with 2nd &amp; 3rd edition players not using teamwork, not knowing the basics of handling dungeon hazards like green slime, not knowing when to be cautious, and not knowing how to respond to situations in general.&nbsp; Most of them doesn't seem to understand how useful a 10' pole or other probing object can be.&nbsp; The result is that it is often hard to guess how tough of a challenge to throw at the party.&nbsp; Too easy of a challenge, and they get bored.&nbsp; But something I would consider a normal challenge for my old group, ends up killing half the party.&nbsp; Even 3rd edition seems to encourage some poor dungeoneering skills.&nbsp; For instance, I've also learned that if I hide something with a mechanic like, 'Search DC 30, but the difficulty drops to 10 if the party specifically states they move the concealing object' , that it goes unoticed 90% of the time EVEN when the party knows something is hidden somewhere in the dungeon complex and is trying to find it.&nbsp; And forget advanced dungeoneering skills like bartering, bribery, and so forth.The only answer I can give you is either let one of them DM, and show the players how to act, or sit them down and OOC talk to them about how to 'Dungeoneer'.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 625692, member: 4937"] Well, that isn't as unusual of a complaint as you might think. Let me ask you a question, 'Did they all start RPing post 2nd edition?' The reason I ask is I'v e noticed a distinct trend among 2nd edition players to rely far too heavily on brute force, spells, and magic items. A quick reading of 2nd edition Forgotten Realms adventures that they cut thier teeth on provides the answer. There are out there players who look at a set of rules and immediately figure out how to break them, create smack downs, and what not. But for the most part, even those players get really skilled at 'dungeon crawling' by actually doing it. I've had horrible problems with 2nd & 3rd edition players not using teamwork, not knowing the basics of handling dungeon hazards like green slime, not knowing when to be cautious, and not knowing how to respond to situations in general. Most of them doesn't seem to understand how useful a 10' pole or other probing object can be. The result is that it is often hard to guess how tough of a challenge to throw at the party. Too easy of a challenge, and they get bored. But something I would consider a normal challenge for my old group, ends up killing half the party. Even 3rd edition seems to encourage some poor dungeoneering skills. For instance, I've also learned that if I hide something with a mechanic like, 'Search DC 30, but the difficulty drops to 10 if the party specifically states they move the concealing object' , that it goes unoticed 90% of the time EVEN when the party knows something is hidden somewhere in the dungeon complex and is trying to find it. And forget advanced dungeoneering skills like bartering, bribery, and so forth. The only answer I can give you is either let one of them DM, and show the players how to act, or sit them down and OOC talk to them about how to 'Dungeoneer'. [/QUOTE]

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