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Message: <blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 2195775" data-attributes="member: 30001">Off the top of my head I'd say the problem falls into the same category as the posts to the effect of:- How do I get my players to roleplay?- How do I get my players to use tactics in battle? I see these all as different sides of the same coin.  Players can probably be put into categories (some players might fall into more than one category):1.  character stat development: primarily interested in gaining XP, choosing their next feat, playing with the next magic item they find, and hanging out with friends2.  tactical/combat:  interested in battling monsters and defeating them with tactics3.  roleplayers4.  puzzle solvers:  answer riddles, figure out what lever to press, etc.5.  strategic thinkers:  different from puzzle solvers in that they see things on a larger scale.  They want to figure out how NPCs think, who their allies are, and how things "work" in the campaign in a broader sense.  Puzzle solvers usually like you to hand them things ("Keraptis the wizard leaves you a clue in the form of the following riddle...") while strategic thinkers tend to want to figure things out without such guidelines. Your dungeon sounds like it requires people in category 5.  Most players IME fall into 1 and 2.  People in category 5 are probably very often DMs. Some of the advice you'll see on the other threads ("why don't my players roleplay?", "should I threaten to kill my players if they don't start using tacits?") probably fall into the category of:1.  give characters XP for doing the right thing (in your example, give them experience for figuring out some part of the puzzle, and announce that you are doing so)2.  kill characters for doing the wrong thing (an announce that you are doing so)  In your particular situation you might want to have the PCs just fail: they are captured by the ogre priest of Orcus (assisted by the hordes of monsters in the dungeon that the PCs are not making an attempt to hide from), questioned as to their intentions in the dungeon, laughed at because of their obvious lack of knowledge about what they are doing there, and released back into the wild without their stuff (because persons of such cluelessness cannot be a threat).   I'm not an advocate of "punishing" players in the game for not doing what you want them to.  But if the scenario calls for strategic thinking and they're not using it, I support you having the chips fall and carrying out the logical consequences of the PCs actions - and I recommend that you explain things, either in game or out of game, so that players are made aware of this particular style of gaming. Some people just play DnD to kill things though, so if your next adventure winds up taking the same course, you may have to resign yourself to that with this particular group of players, the best games are going to be hack and slash.  Or prepare a lot of variations on the "characters are captured" theme.  Or encourage everyone to keep a back-up character handy.</blockquote>

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