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How do players feel about DM fudging?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8599043" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>No, it's be defined as the GM <em>choosing </em>the result. That this also changes the result is a necessary but insufficient part of the difference.</p><p></p><p>We can trivially deal with this by asking if when you fudge, do you randomly change the result on the die and go with the new one, or are you selecting a result to provide a specific outcome?</p><p></p><p>You change the target number, not the die roll, another point against your claim of similarity.</p><p></p><p>Okay, are you calling the people that have said this liars? I mean, odd choice. Let's say that I'm terrified of spiders, and have made my fear of spiders clear, and the GM, on a 1 in a million option, brings out spiders, am I now weird because the incidence of occurrence in other games is very low but since it happens here I'm disturbed? You're making a bad argument -- if fudging happens in the game I'm in it doesn't matter how often it might occur elsewhere, the odds it happened here are 1.</p><p></p><p>I'm much more concerned with the lack of trust the GM is placing in me by deciding that they know better than me and that they need to hide this from me. That's a lack of respect towards me, and it becomes something that's absolutely not about choosing the outcome (which is what we're talking about, the changing a die roll is a sophistic trick) but about the lack of respect and trust. Again, rerolling isn't the same thing because it's a clearly defined and open mechanism that still has a chance for failure/success rather than the GM just deciding what happens after pretending it's up for grabs.</p><p></p><p>I don't think not fudging is a particularly onerous ask. There's a clear statement that players shouldn't be fudging (see adjacent thread) and players make due all the time. It's not exactly a hard ask.</p><p></p><p>If you're playing with people that don't care, then they don't care, but don't demand that because you have the best intentions that everyone should be good with it as a matter of course and that expecting play to not be about the GM fudging, even occasionally, is a particularly onerous ask that makes GMing harder. I don't fudge, and I used to, and I haven't noticed my level of effort become more at all -- if anything, it's easier.</p><p></p><p>Sure, it's bizarre to me the odd logic you're applying here rather than just accepting that it's a legitimate thing that people have different likes. I don't care if you fudge, unless I'm in your game. If I'm in your game, then we either need to reach an agreement or we shouldn't play. Hiding these kinds of choices from me for what you think is my own good is something I'm absolutely going to consider to be patronizing and infantilizing towards me in a way that, if I find out, I'll absolutely be unhappy about. There are contexts where my unhappiness might not be sufficient for me to leave the game, and contexts where it will be plenty sufficient. A short run with friends in a game I'm not particularly invested in would be an example I wouldn't care very much. A game I am invested in, or a longer run, and I will. Not worth my time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8599043, member: 16814"] No, it's be defined as the GM [I]choosing [/I]the result. That this also changes the result is a necessary but insufficient part of the difference. We can trivially deal with this by asking if when you fudge, do you randomly change the result on the die and go with the new one, or are you selecting a result to provide a specific outcome? You change the target number, not the die roll, another point against your claim of similarity. Okay, are you calling the people that have said this liars? I mean, odd choice. Let's say that I'm terrified of spiders, and have made my fear of spiders clear, and the GM, on a 1 in a million option, brings out spiders, am I now weird because the incidence of occurrence in other games is very low but since it happens here I'm disturbed? You're making a bad argument -- if fudging happens in the game I'm in it doesn't matter how often it might occur elsewhere, the odds it happened here are 1. I'm much more concerned with the lack of trust the GM is placing in me by deciding that they know better than me and that they need to hide this from me. That's a lack of respect towards me, and it becomes something that's absolutely not about choosing the outcome (which is what we're talking about, the changing a die roll is a sophistic trick) but about the lack of respect and trust. Again, rerolling isn't the same thing because it's a clearly defined and open mechanism that still has a chance for failure/success rather than the GM just deciding what happens after pretending it's up for grabs. I don't think not fudging is a particularly onerous ask. There's a clear statement that players shouldn't be fudging (see adjacent thread) and players make due all the time. It's not exactly a hard ask. If you're playing with people that don't care, then they don't care, but don't demand that because you have the best intentions that everyone should be good with it as a matter of course and that expecting play to not be about the GM fudging, even occasionally, is a particularly onerous ask that makes GMing harder. I don't fudge, and I used to, and I haven't noticed my level of effort become more at all -- if anything, it's easier. Sure, it's bizarre to me the odd logic you're applying here rather than just accepting that it's a legitimate thing that people have different likes. I don't care if you fudge, unless I'm in your game. If I'm in your game, then we either need to reach an agreement or we shouldn't play. Hiding these kinds of choices from me for what you think is my own good is something I'm absolutely going to consider to be patronizing and infantilizing towards me in a way that, if I find out, I'll absolutely be unhappy about. There are contexts where my unhappiness might not be sufficient for me to leave the game, and contexts where it will be plenty sufficient. A short run with friends in a game I'm not particularly invested in would be an example I wouldn't care very much. A game I am invested in, or a longer run, and I will. Not worth my time. [/QUOTE]
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