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How do players feel about DM fudging?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8601512" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>The GM can choose to kill characters at any time, for any reason. Is this expected? The GM can choose to tell players that every single thing they try to have their characters do fails, and describe humiliating results. Is this expected? Frankly, stepping a bit outside the rules, the GM can be a complete monster and verbally abuse the players with no provocation. Is this expected? If the test of expected is that it might happen, then congratulations, you've just made discussion of anything about the game pointless, because so much is now expected.</p><p></p><p>It's not needed at all, and, frankly, most of the rough edges aren't player facing because they exist in adventure and encounter design. Just check the boards for the perennial topics and you'll see this.</p><p></p><p>End result of what? The only things I had in the post is the GM fudges or the GM doesn't and the latter doesn't do the same as the former. I'm assuming you're reaching back to reroll mechanics, here? That's been thoroughly contested and you haven't yet addressed those counter points, you just keep saying the thing contested. To sum up:</p><p></p><p>You're committing the inform logical fallacy of a false equivalence. You note that since reroll changes the rolled value and that a fudge also changes the rolled value that these are therefore the same thing. This ignores quite a lot. Firstly, when you reroll, you replace the 1st rolled value with the 2nd rolled value. Both are fairly rolled, both have the same chances to succeed or fail. With fudging, there is no fairly rolled replacement -- the GM determines the outcome that they want, then, if necessary, arbitrarily selects a value and pretends that it was rolled. The method is different.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, a reroll exists within the ruleset. The rules tell you when to apply the reroll and how to apply the reroll. Fudging is discarding the rules in favor of the GM's whim (you can call it judgement, if you'd prefer, but it's still arbitrary). This is the difference between following the rules of the game and breaking the rules of the game. Even if you lean on the discussions across editions on fudging (which is entirely missing in 5e except for the one blurb that talks about how hiding dice rolls allows the breaking of the rules, nothing on when, how, or why to fudge) it is explicitly presented as the GM using their position and secret rolling techniques to break the rules of the game in pursuit of some other goal. This is also often recommended within these same discussions to keep the fudging secret, so the breaking of the rules should be done secretly -- the exact opposite of a reroll.</p><p></p><p>No, the same thing is not done. You're moving to the conclusion and assuming that the end solely justifies the means. That a reroll cannot force the same end while fudging always does is a third point to consider -- one is a chance to change the first rolled outcome, the latter is a guarantee to do so.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8601512, member: 16814"] The GM can choose to kill characters at any time, for any reason. Is this expected? The GM can choose to tell players that every single thing they try to have their characters do fails, and describe humiliating results. Is this expected? Frankly, stepping a bit outside the rules, the GM can be a complete monster and verbally abuse the players with no provocation. Is this expected? If the test of expected is that it might happen, then congratulations, you've just made discussion of anything about the game pointless, because so much is now expected. It's not needed at all, and, frankly, most of the rough edges aren't player facing because they exist in adventure and encounter design. Just check the boards for the perennial topics and you'll see this. End result of what? The only things I had in the post is the GM fudges or the GM doesn't and the latter doesn't do the same as the former. I'm assuming you're reaching back to reroll mechanics, here? That's been thoroughly contested and you haven't yet addressed those counter points, you just keep saying the thing contested. To sum up: You're committing the inform logical fallacy of a false equivalence. You note that since reroll changes the rolled value and that a fudge also changes the rolled value that these are therefore the same thing. This ignores quite a lot. Firstly, when you reroll, you replace the 1st rolled value with the 2nd rolled value. Both are fairly rolled, both have the same chances to succeed or fail. With fudging, there is no fairly rolled replacement -- the GM determines the outcome that they want, then, if necessary, arbitrarily selects a value and pretends that it was rolled. The method is different. Secondly, a reroll exists within the ruleset. The rules tell you when to apply the reroll and how to apply the reroll. Fudging is discarding the rules in favor of the GM's whim (you can call it judgement, if you'd prefer, but it's still arbitrary). This is the difference between following the rules of the game and breaking the rules of the game. Even if you lean on the discussions across editions on fudging (which is entirely missing in 5e except for the one blurb that talks about how hiding dice rolls allows the breaking of the rules, nothing on when, how, or why to fudge) it is explicitly presented as the GM using their position and secret rolling techniques to break the rules of the game in pursuit of some other goal. This is also often recommended within these same discussions to keep the fudging secret, so the breaking of the rules should be done secretly -- the exact opposite of a reroll. No, the same thing is not done. You're moving to the conclusion and assuming that the end solely justifies the means. That a reroll cannot force the same end while fudging always does is a third point to consider -- one is a chance to change the first rolled outcome, the latter is a guarantee to do so. [/QUOTE]
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