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How do players feel about DM fudging?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8605310" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>If I actually saw all that many people doing this, I would 100% agree with you, but I find such examples pretty rare. Likewise, I find reversed examples like "trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer" etc. to be pretty uncommon as well.</p><p></p><p>Instead, I find a lot of them occupy a liminal space, something like trying to use a sedan as a hauler for moving cross-country and asking around for ways to strap extra load on top of the vehicle. Or playing a PC game with a controller and talking about the convoluted button setup they've used so they can still do the four dozen actions you need independent buttons for with only the limited inputs a controller permits, but now a new feature has been added and they're shopping around for advice on how to squeeze in a few more button combinations to include it.</p><p></p><p>That is, these are examples of people either seeking advice or describing their pretty heavy hacks of something that takes it rather far afield...in ways that may not be wise or effective. If you're having to concern yourself about strapping a large load on top of your sedan in order to move, it is not unreasonable to suggest that renting a moving vehicle is a better (and safer) choice, though it may be the case that such rental is unworkable or outside the person's budget. Similarly, can understand being proud of having figured out how to use a controller, which I know a fair chunk of people find more comfortable than M&KB. However, even if you prefer that approach and have put a lot of effort into making it work, if the button capacity is already strained, it seems perfectly reasonable to suggest that learning to play with M&KB may be needed. That's not dismissive of their preferences or denigrating to the idea of using a controller, it's just noting that doing all that effort to preserve controller use may be simply unworkable in the long run. (I am reminded of a YouTuber I watch who tried, unsuccessfully, to use a SNES-style controller for a game he loves. It ultimately couldn't work; there just aren't enough buttons on a Super Nintendo controller to do all the things you need to do.)</p><p></p><p>Note that I chose my example analogies because they are, at least in part, a matter of <em>judgment calls</em>. It is neither obvious nor totally objective that a certain size of load is too much to be crammed into and onto a sedan in most cases, even though facts do play a part in making that judgment. It is neither obvious nor totally objective that developing a complex button input system to give you more options will be insufficient or unwieldy for playing any given game, particularly if a given player really loves controllers or really hates keyboards, or has some kind of physical disability that makes M&KB much harder to use than controller.</p><p></p><p>It need not be impugning preferences (after all, <em>de gustibus non disputandum est)</em> nor judgment to tell someone that their ends might be better served by employing different means. That need not be saying the thing they like is bad nor that they have made a bad choice. Instead, if it's said with due caution after appropriately examining someone's stated intent and current methods, it can be perfectly cromulent to say, "There are other methods which achieve the goal you seek, such as X or Y, have you considered them?"</p><p></p><p>I am reminded of some extremely tedious conversations I have had in the past where people have asked (paraphrasing and de-contexting to avoid drama) "why can't I play a Vanguard that's purely focused on butt-kicking?" I and others would then tell them, "well, you can choose to focus more on butt-kicking than other things as a Vanguard if you want, but if you really want to be a mundane sword-lady who fights aliens and doesn't afraid of anything, you should look at Myrmidon, because it was specifically designed to do the thing you're asking for." They would then retort with some variation on "NO, it HAS to be Vanguard, it's so dumb that I can't choose not to have the Vanguard's Defense thing that I don't want. Myrmidon isn't Vanguard!" And I would just be left frustrated and annoyed because that meant literally just the NAME of the class was more important to them than getting the experience they claimed to want; that writing "Vanguard" on their character sheet was so unbelievably important to them that it trumped any other consideration, period.</p><p></p><p>If I have spoken at length with someone, long enough to get a good idea of what their goals are and what effort they have put in to achieve those goals, and evaluated that they seem to be placing more emphasis on "no it must be a system named D&D!" rather than on what the system actually does or is designed for, I won't feel bad telling them that. That doesn't make me a jerk crapping on their love of D&D, it means I am frankly telling them that they seem to be preoccupied with a mere label to the extent that it is preventing them from finding things that will work for their goals.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8605310, member: 6790260"] If I actually saw all that many people doing this, I would 100% agree with you, but I find such examples pretty rare. Likewise, I find reversed examples like "trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer" etc. to be pretty uncommon as well. Instead, I find a lot of them occupy a liminal space, something like trying to use a sedan as a hauler for moving cross-country and asking around for ways to strap extra load on top of the vehicle. Or playing a PC game with a controller and talking about the convoluted button setup they've used so they can still do the four dozen actions you need independent buttons for with only the limited inputs a controller permits, but now a new feature has been added and they're shopping around for advice on how to squeeze in a few more button combinations to include it. That is, these are examples of people either seeking advice or describing their pretty heavy hacks of something that takes it rather far afield...in ways that may not be wise or effective. If you're having to concern yourself about strapping a large load on top of your sedan in order to move, it is not unreasonable to suggest that renting a moving vehicle is a better (and safer) choice, though it may be the case that such rental is unworkable or outside the person's budget. Similarly, can understand being proud of having figured out how to use a controller, which I know a fair chunk of people find more comfortable than M&KB. However, even if you prefer that approach and have put a lot of effort into making it work, if the button capacity is already strained, it seems perfectly reasonable to suggest that learning to play with M&KB may be needed. That's not dismissive of their preferences or denigrating to the idea of using a controller, it's just noting that doing all that effort to preserve controller use may be simply unworkable in the long run. (I am reminded of a YouTuber I watch who tried, unsuccessfully, to use a SNES-style controller for a game he loves. It ultimately couldn't work; there just aren't enough buttons on a Super Nintendo controller to do all the things you need to do.) Note that I chose my example analogies because they are, at least in part, a matter of [I]judgment calls[/I]. It is neither obvious nor totally objective that a certain size of load is too much to be crammed into and onto a sedan in most cases, even though facts do play a part in making that judgment. It is neither obvious nor totally objective that developing a complex button input system to give you more options will be insufficient or unwieldy for playing any given game, particularly if a given player really loves controllers or really hates keyboards, or has some kind of physical disability that makes M&KB much harder to use than controller. It need not be impugning preferences (after all, [I]de gustibus non disputandum est)[/I] nor judgment to tell someone that their ends might be better served by employing different means. That need not be saying the thing they like is bad nor that they have made a bad choice. Instead, if it's said with due caution after appropriately examining someone's stated intent and current methods, it can be perfectly cromulent to say, "There are other methods which achieve the goal you seek, such as X or Y, have you considered them?" I am reminded of some extremely tedious conversations I have had in the past where people have asked (paraphrasing and de-contexting to avoid drama) "why can't I play a Vanguard that's purely focused on butt-kicking?" I and others would then tell them, "well, you can choose to focus more on butt-kicking than other things as a Vanguard if you want, but if you really want to be a mundane sword-lady who fights aliens and doesn't afraid of anything, you should look at Myrmidon, because it was specifically designed to do the thing you're asking for." They would then retort with some variation on "NO, it HAS to be Vanguard, it's so dumb that I can't choose not to have the Vanguard's Defense thing that I don't want. Myrmidon isn't Vanguard!" And I would just be left frustrated and annoyed because that meant literally just the NAME of the class was more important to them than getting the experience they claimed to want; that writing "Vanguard" on their character sheet was so unbelievably important to them that it trumped any other consideration, period. If I have spoken at length with someone, long enough to get a good idea of what their goals are and what effort they have put in to achieve those goals, and evaluated that they seem to be placing more emphasis on "no it must be a system named D&D!" rather than on what the system actually does or is designed for, I won't feel bad telling them that. That doesn't make me a jerk crapping on their love of D&D, it means I am frankly telling them that they seem to be preoccupied with a mere label to the extent that it is preventing them from finding things that will work for their goals. [/QUOTE]
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