How do skills work?

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

I'm not sure I understand exactly how max ranks for any given skill works for multiclass characters in 3.5.

Let's look at an example multiclass PC.

Ranger 4/ Rogue 4/Sorcerer 4
The skills we'll worry about for example purposes are Bluff, Climb, and Concentration. Before you check your SRD, I'll just remind you that

Rangers get Cilmb & Concentration as Class Skills, but Bluff is cross-class.
Rogues get Bluff & Climb, but Concentration is cross-class.
Sorcerers get Bluff & Concentration, but Climb is cross-class.

Max ranks for a 12th level ranger are Bluff 7.5, Climb 15, Concentration 15
Max ranks for a 12th level rogue are Bluff 15, Climb 15, Concentration 7.5
Max ranks for a 12th level sorcerer are Bluff 15, Climb 7.5, Concentration 15

Max ranks for a 4th level ranger are Bluff 3.5, Climb 7, Concentration 7
Max ranks for a 4th level rogue are Bluff 7, Climb 7, Concentration 3.5
Max ranks for a 4th level sorcerer are Bluff 7, Climb 3.5, Concentration 7

7+7+3.5=17.5.

Is 17.5 the max ranks for all three skills in question for this character? If so, how does it come to be that multiclassing into a class for which a particular skill is a cross-class skill actually increase max ranks to a level higher than is possible for a character who stays exclusively in the class which grants the skill as a class skill?

4+4+4=12 12+3=15

Is 15 the max ranks for all three skill for this character? If so, is nothing lost by multiclassing "just a little bit?" If so, what happens to, say the Bluff skill, for a Ranger 4/ Rogue 4? Max rank 11? Max rank 5.5? Split the difference at 16.25?

 

[kenobi65]

As I understand it...

Your maximum ranks in a skill that's a class skill for any of your classes is your character level+3 (since, in 3.5, there are no longer class-exclusive skills).

"Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it's a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3." (PHB, p. 62, right-hand column)

So, in your example, your Ranger 4 / Rogue 4 / Sorcerer 4 has a max of 15 ranks in Bluff, Climb, and Concentration, because all of those are class skills for at least one of his classes, and his max ranks in those skills is his character level (12) +3.

The issue is, when you take a level in a particular class, if the skill you want to advance is cross-class for that class, then you have to buy ranks at the cross-class rate. Thus, if your example PC went up to Ranger 5 / Rogue 4 / Sorcerer 4, and you wanted to advance your Bluff from 15 ranks to 16 ranks, you'd have to spend 2 skill points to do it.

Clear as mud?

 

[Squire James]

The best way I've found to handle this sort of thing is to keep these two rules in mind:

1. Class skills cost 1 skill point per rank, and cross-class skills cost 2 skill points per rank.

2. The maximum number of SKILL POINTS that can be spent on a skill is 3+character level.

So, for your Rgr4/Rog4/Sor4, 15 skill points is the maximum you can put in one skill. It doesn't matter when you spend the points. You can arrange it so you only put points into Bluff during your Rogue and Sorcerer level-ups, and so on. At best, you can have 15 ranks in any two of those skills, and 14 ranks in the third one (the cross-class skill of the last class you took).

 

[kenobi65]

2. The maximum number of SKILL POINTS that can be spent on a skill is 3+character level.

This isn't accurate, unfortuantely. You may be confusing skill points and ranks.

For example...

Once my PC takes a level in Rogue, all of the skills that are a class skill for Rogue are now skills that I can max out at (character level+3). So, if my PC started out as a Rogue 1, then took 10 levels in Sorcerer (for character level=11), the maximum ranks I'd have for Spot would be 14, because Spot is a class skill for at least one of my classes.

However, because Spot isn't a class skill for Sorcerers, to max out Spot at 14 ranks, I'd have had to spend at least 24 skill points! (4 as a 1st level Rogue, then 2 every level as a Sorcerer to get one cross-class skill point.)

 

[dcollins]

Kenobi has it (and the quote). Same in 3.0 and 3.5.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

As I understand it...

Your maximum ranks in a skill that's a class skill for any of your classes is your character level+3 (since, in 3.5, there are no longer class-exclusive skills).

"Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it's a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3." (PHB, p. 62, right-hand column)

So, in your example, your Ranger 4 / Rogue 4 / Sorcerer 4 has a max of 15 ranks in Bluff, Climb, and Concentration, because all of those are class skills for at least one of his classes, and his max ranks in those skills is his character level (12) +3.

The issue is, when you take a level in a particular class, if the skill you want to advance is cross-class for that class, then you have to buy ranks at the cross-class rate. Thus, if your example PC went up to Ranger 5 / Rogue 4 / Sorcerer 4, and you wanted to advance your Bluff from 15 ranks to 16 ranks, you'd have to spend 2 skill points to do it.

Clear as mud?

Even clearer. Thanks for the help. That's much simpler and much better than I had hoped.

 

[Amaroq]

Max ranks for a 4th level ranger are Bluff 3.5, Climb 7, Concentration 7
Max ranks for a 4th level rogue are Bluff 7, Climb 7, Concentration 3.5
Max ranks for a 4th level sorcerer are Bluff 7, Climb 3.5, Concentration 7

7+7+3.5=17.5.

Is 17.5 the max ranks for all three skills in question for this character? If so, how does it come to be that multiclassing into a class for which a particular skill is a cross-class skill actually increase max ranks to a level higher than is possible for a character who stays exclusively in the class which grants the skill as a class skill?

Really quickly - though its been clarified above - I wanted to address why this math appears to come out wrong.

The assumption that you could add max ranks in a skill for the classes involved is incorrect, because your example 'max ranks' includes the base '3' for '0-level'.

Let's look at "Climb" for a ranger-1/rogue-1.
I maximize my ranks in Climb as a ranger-1: 4.
I add a level in rogue, and add the maximum number of ranks in Climb: 1.
Total: 5.

I wind up with 5, rather than 8, because I don't get to include the base '3' twice.

 

[Pickaxe]

Kenobi has it (and the quote). Same in 3.0 and 3.5.

Wow, all along our group thought that multiclassing gave you the new class' class skills (which is what it does say), and that applied to the cost of the skills as well. I thought it was just part of the multiclass-friendly nature of 3E. Well, learn something every day....

I should point out that the info about skill cost is in the section on advancing a multiclass character, not in the previous section on skills (at least in 3.0). It might not hurt to mention this in both places.

--Axe

 

[Darkness]

Thank you, kenobi. I had forgotten about that; I didn't play much for a while...