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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 4842300" data-attributes="member: 3192">When I talk about indirect effect I mean everything is tied together that is written in the module, core rules, and setting.&nbsp; Like an hourglass of sand, when one particle slips out every single other one may change, only some, or none at all.&nbsp; I cannot know which or how many before that grain drops. In RPGs the degree and manner of that change, and further changes, is learned through continued interaction with the whole informing the players of how to roleplay well.&nbsp; That whole is the game system. And how it defines successful roleplaying is what is being guessed at by the players.&nbsp; Without that measure of success being determined beforehand the players can effect no success whatsoever.&nbsp; They are merely up to the whim of the DM on whether their actions can lead to any preferred end. I'm reminded of a quote from Almost Famous where one band member says &quot;just make us look cool, man&quot;.&nbsp; That may be what many people want, but I prefer games were the challenges are real.I'd say no.&nbsp; Remember, it's a guessing game.&nbsp; As long as he is determining the roleplaying to be guessed at and performed before the players begin with that approximation, then the DM is presenting a single riddle, or behavior in the case of RPGs.It's in all the reward sections.&nbsp; You get XP for killing monsters.&nbsp; Some for stealing gold, or pretty much anything that has a monetary value. Etc.&nbsp; These are all roleplaying rewards.Modules have the same.&nbsp; XP for completing certain tasks like delivering messages.&nbsp; Or uncovering clues.&nbsp; Or broken down depending upon the class the player is playing.&nbsp; Playing the entire game typically means reaching a capstone level which proves how good a player one is: 10, 20, 30, 36, etc.&nbsp; I agree, but I wasn't sure by your previous response.&nbsp; You had said, &quot;Winning and losing only have meaning if there is competition&quot;, which is something I normally hear from people who roleplay according to another definition, the one all about exploring what it means to be an elf or something similar.&nbsp; For traditional roleplaying games roleplaying well is measured by the amount of XP one earns.&nbsp; A high XP total typically means a player is a good roleplayer.&nbsp; Unless their DM cheated in giving out XP or the player's a munchkin thinking they can show up with a high level PC never worked up to that point and think somehow that's indicative of how good a player they are.Note: I have to get some work done, so I'll be away for awhile.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 4842300, member: 3192"] When I talk about indirect effect I mean everything is tied together that is written in the module, core rules, and setting. Like an hourglass of sand, when one particle slips out every single other one may change, only some, or none at all. I cannot know which or how many before that grain drops. In RPGs the degree and manner of that change, and further changes, is learned through continued interaction with the whole informing the players of how to roleplay well. That whole is the game system. And how it defines successful roleplaying is what is being guessed at by the players. Without that measure of success being determined beforehand the players can effect no success whatsoever. They are merely up to the whim of the DM on whether their actions can lead to any preferred end. I'm reminded of a quote from [U]Almost Famous[/U] where one band member says "just make us look cool, man". That may be what many people want, but I prefer games were the challenges are real. I'd say no. Remember, it's a guessing game. As long as he is determining the roleplaying to be guessed at and performed before the players begin with that approximation, then the DM is presenting a single riddle, or behavior in the case of RPGs. It's in all the reward sections. You get XP for killing monsters. Some for stealing gold, or pretty much anything that has a monetary value. Etc. These are all roleplaying rewards. Modules have the same. XP for completing certain tasks like delivering messages. Or uncovering clues. Or broken down depending upon the class the player is playing. Playing the entire game typically means reaching a capstone level which proves how good a player one is: 10, 20, 30, 36, etc. I agree, but I wasn't sure by your previous response. You had said, "Winning and losing only have meaning if there is competition", which is something I normally hear from people who roleplay according to another definition, the one all about exploring what it means to be an elf or something similar. For traditional roleplaying games roleplaying well is measured by the amount of XP one earns. A high XP total typically means a player is a good roleplayer. Unless their DM cheated in giving out XP or the player's a munchkin thinking they can show up with a high level PC never worked up to that point and think somehow that's indicative of how good a player they are. Note: I have to get some work done, so I'll be away for awhile. [/QUOTE]

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