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<blockquote data-quote="RenleyRenfield" data-source="post: 9571436" data-attributes="member: 7044197">That's a fantastic point!&nbsp; And I think you highlighted something that desperately needs to go away in all RPGs = &quot;there is uncertainty in the result, and there are notable consequences for failure&quot;Failure is the worst thing an RPG can do or model, and it always ruins stories.&nbsp;&nbsp; And it should never be in a single given die roll. The better way any game should address character challenge is = &quot;there is uncertainty in the result, and there are notable consequences. FULL STOP&quot;This poor choice for games to say &quot;you failed your roll, you failed your action&quot; is the actual and real core of why players get frustrated at weakness, power level, action results. Story/scene : &quot;Doctor is in a wartime battlefield, has to do field surgery on a soldier to save their life.&quot; - Least interesting roll result = &quot;you needed a 10, you rolled an 8.&nbsp; you failed your roll, the patient is dead.&quot; - Much better roll result: &quot;you needed a 10, you rolled an 8, you are helping the patient but there is a complication.&nbsp; You are trying to close up the last artery, but there is a bullet wedged against a bone and artery that needs a special tool you don't have to remove it safely, what do you do?&quot; Failure comes from &quot;the overall result of the scene&quot;, it comes from a series of rolls/actions.&nbsp; Which all lead up to overall success or failure of whatever was going on.&nbsp; In the better roll result scene, the complication lets the player choose the risk of consequences they want to taken on.&nbsp; send runner for special tool?&nbsp; create makeshift tool? do some odd surgery technique? all different consequences, and all open up the door for player input creativity!&nbsp; <ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">By letting the doctor work through several rolls to save their patient, they feel like they are competently working on the task.&nbsp;&nbsp; (and keeps the pressure on so the scene feels more interactive too!</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">By letting any one single full failure roll, just fail the whole effort, the doctor character feels helpless and incompetent.</li>
</ul>It's ok if the patient dies in either case.&nbsp; It's just that &quot;consequences&quot; of player character Risks taken, and complications from rolls that didn't meet the difficulty rating, give an overall picture of the challenge at hand.&nbsp; ...This can be applied to combat too!&nbsp;&nbsp; A single swing of a sword, need 10 to hit, rolls 8 = &quot;You hit, but it left an opening for the enemy to slice your hip, if your next action is not to address this opening, they will get free attack on you!&quot;&nbsp; instead of the really lame/boring/incompetent swing and a miss junk: need a 10 to hit, rolls 8 = &quot;nothing happens, you missed.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="RenleyRenfield, post: 9571436, member: 7044197"] That's a fantastic point! And I think you highlighted something that desperately needs to go away in all RPGs = "there is uncertainty in the result, and there are notable consequences for [B][U]failure[/U][/B]" [I]Failure [/I]is the worst thing an RPG can do or model, and it always ruins stories. And it should never be in a single given die roll. The better way any game should address character challenge is = "there is uncertainty in the result, and there are notable [B][U]consequences[/U][/B]. [I]FULL STOP[/I]" This poor choice for games to say "you failed your roll, you failed your action" is the actual and real core of why players get frustrated at weakness, power level, action results. Story/scene : "Doctor is in a wartime battlefield, has to do field surgery on a soldier to save their life." - Least interesting roll result = [I]"you needed a 10, you rolled an 8. you failed your roll, the patient is dead."[/I] - Much better roll result:[I] "you needed a 10, you rolled an 8, you are helping the patient but there is a complication. You are trying to close up the last artery, but there is a bullet wedged against a bone and artery that needs a special tool you don't have to remove it safely, what do you do?"[/I] Failure comes from "the overall result of the scene", it comes from a [I]series of rolls/actions[/I]. Which all lead up to overall success or failure of whatever was going on. In the [I]better roll result scene[/I], the [I]complication [/I]lets the player [I]choose the risk of consequences they want to taken on.[/I] send runner for special tool? create makeshift tool? do some odd surgery technique? [B] all different consequences, and all open up the door for player input creativity![/B] [LIST] [*]By letting the doctor work through[I] several rolls [/I]to save their patient, they feel like they are competently working on the task. (and keeps the pressure on so the scene feels more interactive too! [*]By letting any one [I]single full failure roll,[/I] just fail the whole effort, the doctor character feels helpless and incompetent. [/LIST] It's ok if the patient dies in either case. It's just that "consequences" of player character Risks taken, and complications from rolls that didn't meet the difficulty rating, give an overall picture of the challenge at hand. ... This can be applied to combat too! A single swing of a sword, need 10 to hit, rolls 8 = "You hit, but it left an opening for the enemy to slice your hip, if your next action is not to address this opening, they will get free attack on you!" instead of the really lame/boring/incompetent swing and a miss junk: need a 10 to hit, rolls 8 = "nothing happens, you missed." [/QUOTE]

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