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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6218463" data-attributes="member: 4937">You keep saying that.  Fine, was I putting words in your mouth when I accused your of arguing against a straw man?You said: "I honestly don't like the concept of a 'dungeon' very much. The idea that a fantasy world would be populated with random holes full of arbitrary traps and monsters has always seemed silly to me." - emphasis added  to highlight in line definitionEquating dungeon with "random holes full of arbitrary traps and monsters" would I think reasonably strike many readers as a straw man.Was I putting words in your mouth when I suggested that despite your declaration that you didn't like dungeons, you seemed to utilize them?  Again, quoting you:"I tell stories. Sometimes the stories result in the players having to go to a specific location that has a lot of creatures that would like to kill them. I design those locations as the logic of the story dictates."A specific location that has a lot of creatures that would like to kill the PCs would reasonably strike many readers as a Dungeon, and so it is reasonable I think to see your statements as self-contradiction.   So, tell me again how I'm being unreasonable, so that you are justified in firing off a snide comments.  You claim that pointing out that straw man and contradiction in your writing is some how me being insulting, but you seem rather disinclined to explain how I'm misinterpreting what you wrote.And, I think it is reasonable to suggest that most published modules - to say nothing of what most people homebrew - fit more the description of "sometimes the stories result in the players having to go to a specific location that has a lot monster that would like to kill them" than they do "random holes full of arbitrary traps and monsters".   This is as I said especially true of most of the material published in the last 30 years.  But ok, defend the claim that most professional writers are putting out "random holes full of arbitrary traps and monsters" in place of dungeons and adventures.And again, I was very careful in phrasing my post.  Read it again, I put no words in your mouth.  I described what your words put in my ear, nor have you done anything to dissuade me that I've misinterpreted you.  Quoting myself:"It doesn't sound to me like you dislike the idea of a 'dungeon' at all. Instead, you've created this straw man definition of what a 'dungeon' is, and are favorably comparing what you do against that straw man. So maybe what you don't like is a dungeon of a very particular (and in my opinion rather rare) sort, but it doesn't sound like you dislike the concept of a dungeon generally."So if you say I've put lots of words in your mouth in that quotation, please find them.  That should be an easy challenge.Exactly where did I move the goal posts?  Can you back that up with a quote.  I'm pretty sure I've focused on what I see as your self-contradiction the whole time.  It's not insulting to ask someone to explain their logic when they make self-contradictory claims.  I'm certainly not putting words in your mouth to examine the plain meaning of what you write, nor did your explanation seem to contradict my understanding of what you wrote.  From your explanation it seems you really do think the definition of dungeon is "random hole full of arbitrary traps and monsters".  From your explanation it seems you really do think that all or nearly all published modules lack story elements.  After all, you did say, "Pick a module", as if  any module I picked would meet your straw man definition.  If I tell you that I don't think that those are defensible claims, it's not "putting words in your mouth" or "moving the goal posts", nor does your passive aggression make for a satisfying rebuttal.</blockquote>

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