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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 6546147" data-attributes="member: 177">First off, as several have said - you do not domesticate individual animals.  Domestication is a process that happens over generations of selective breeding of a population.Second off, yes, you can train an animal with negative reinforcement.  But, what you get *ISN'T* a tame animal.  It is, for lack of a better description, a cowed or intimidated animal.  And it is far more likely to get sick of your crap and try to rip your face off or stomp you into the dirt for what you are doing than an animal trained by positive means.Thirdly, what is "well known" is factually incorrect.  Negative reinforcement actually takes more time and effort, because animals generally are good associating a cause to a good effect, but not very good at associating the right cause to a bad effect.  The most common example being house-training a dog - the old swatting an errant dog with a rolled-up newspaper, or shouting at him and shoving his nose in it to teach him not to do that generally takes longer to produce the desired behavior, has a far lower success rate and higher rate of recidivism (returning to the old, undesired behavior) than more positive techniques.People still use negative reinforcement, but not because it is better - they do it because they either have some really unfortunate ideas about animal cognition and/or man's place in the world, or are simply flat out ignorant of the truth.Yes, I have friends with horses, too.  And, by the way, my wife is a veterinarian.There's a major, major difference between what happens to horses and real negative reinforcement training.  Training a horse is, in large part, getting the horse to realize that the thing they don't like *isn't* actually causing them harm.  No, they don't like having a rider on their back to start.  No, they don't like the bit, and no, they don't like going where you tell them.  And yes, you have to be stern about getting them to accept things.  But you're not using a cattle prod, or beating them.  They are not generally taught, "if you don't do what I want, I will cause you pain and/or fear."  I think you may have a mistaken idea of what counts as "negative reinforcement training".  Tough love is not negative reinforcement.  Tough love roughly boils down to sticking to something that animal doesn't like, until they get it right so you can give them the positive reinforcement.  When you are training a police dog, you *NO NOT* hit the dog for not doing the job right.Broadly speaking, with positive reinforcement, when the animal performs the desired behavior, you give them something they like (food, affection, or what have you) as a reward.  They associate the action with the positive feeling the reward gives, eventually so strongly that you don't need to give much reward - their own head does the rewarding for you.  This is generally easy, because they have an exact example of what it was that gets them the reward - their own action.  Once they hit on the right action, you are telling them, "Yes, do this!"In negative reinforcement, when the animal fails to perform the desired behavior, you provide a negative stimulus (for example, pain) and repeat until they get it right, which amounts to, "I stop hurting you when you get it right".  The problem with negative reinforcement is simple - the animal doesn't actually know what they are not doing correctly.  You are repeatedly telling them, "No, don't do that!" but not telling them what they are actually supposed to do, except by process of elimination.  You throw the ball, and a few moments later smack the dog.  How does the dog get to know you want him to bring the ball back?  Eventually, he'll fall upon the desired behavior, but he is highly likely to miss the cause and effect relationship that is so clear in the positive reinforcement, and is highly likely to associate the negative with something related, but not the same, as what you want, and then try to *avoid* that thing.And, in the meantime, he's stressed, worried, anxious, and in pain, and likely to develop unwanted behaviors as a result.I find your "facts" to be more common beliefs and misconceptions.</blockquote>

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